sundevil777 102
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Bolas 5
QuoteHowever you do realize understanding the truth about life (that it is not fair and not a fairytale) also includes understanding why people react to certain things with hate or violence.
To avoid or pretend our actions have zero effect and all the hate is because of Islam is disingenuous, and also breeds extremist mentalities that cause genocide.
Hate is born of arrogance, faith, and ignorance with no regard to logical thought, the three main tenants of most religions.
Quote
if we stopped shooting and tried increasing the standard of living in problem areas there would be a significant drop in extremists views.
So we should expand government handouts to all people worldwide to make them like us?
Extremism in any form is not logical or rational which means that they generally can't be reasoned with. How many people have succesfully used logic to convince even a mildly religious person that their entire system is based solely of faith and belief and no facts support this?
Is it any wonder why extreme versions of any religion can be even less tolerant of others?
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
RackJR 0
So rather than ask a question, you label me a pacifist. You still haven't asked anything, you just continue to label.
You replied with anger to a simple statement that the US shares responsibility for the current situation we find ourselves in. You generalize about Arabs. You don't respond to direct questions, and you twist the statements of others so that you can dismiss what is actually said.
I ignore nothing that I've said. The US does share responsibility for our current state of middle east affairs, including this misguided war. I never said it was possible to wage any war without innocents being killed, and even added that any war fought in the US would claim the lives of innocent people who do not share the same ideals as those in power. The 9/11 attacks are a perfect example of that scenario. When I asked you to provide the quote where I did state that, you quoted yourself.
You failed to reply to anything about your feelings about US responsibility. Your anger toward my original post seems extremist, as I feel only an extremist would claim any situation is black and white.
This was my statement of how you were presenting yourself. How have you twisted this to be what I feel? Again, you ignore answering anything about what responsibility you feel the US has. So, again I will say the same thing: I can only assume that you feel the US is 100% in the right, the "Arabs" are 100% in the wrong. That's extremist. Exactly the same as them, just in a different religious package. Only extremists view the world in such simple terms.
I guess compared to you, most people are pacifists, huh? If I don't advocate wiping out the same people you want to wipe out, then I must be a pacifist. It's how you can dismiss every single thing that anyone says who disagrees with you.
I have no problem with the statement that radical elements within Islam are a threat to the free world, and the US in particular. I think that radical elements within any religious group are a threat to the free world, including Jews. However, since we're talking about Islam: It is an issue we must deal with. Laying down all our arms and defenses would be silly. About as silly as thinking that invading their country, and risking killing innocent people, isn't going to make the problem bigger. Our long term peace will not be accomplished at gunpoint. It will begin with an acceptance of past mistakes, and a sincere effort to avoid them in the future. It will continue with trying to rebuild our standing with those people. We will not win back all of them. Extremists on both sides are probably a lost cause. Maybe we can stick all of you in the same place, and see what happens. Maybe your idea of fighting the enemy would change if the US military wasn't doing the fighting, and you had to do it yourself?
It's interesting to me that you went on such a tirade to point out how much the Jews want peace, and all you can talk about is wiping these people out.
Say what you mean. Do what you say.
You replied with anger to a simple statement that the US shares responsibility for the current situation we find ourselves in. You generalize about Arabs. You don't respond to direct questions, and you twist the statements of others so that you can dismiss what is actually said.
I ignore nothing that I've said. The US does share responsibility for our current state of middle east affairs, including this misguided war. I never said it was possible to wage any war without innocents being killed, and even added that any war fought in the US would claim the lives of innocent people who do not share the same ideals as those in power. The 9/11 attacks are a perfect example of that scenario. When I asked you to provide the quote where I did state that, you quoted yourself.
You failed to reply to anything about your feelings about US responsibility. Your anger toward my original post seems extremist, as I feel only an extremist would claim any situation is black and white.
QuoteQuote
I can only guess then that you feel the US has absolutely no responsibility for anything that's going on. We are actually the victims in all this. Every one of our bullets finds the proper target. Every bomb finds Al Qaeda.
This was my statement of how you were presenting yourself. How have you twisted this to be what I feel? Again, you ignore answering anything about what responsibility you feel the US has. So, again I will say the same thing: I can only assume that you feel the US is 100% in the right, the "Arabs" are 100% in the wrong. That's extremist. Exactly the same as them, just in a different religious package. Only extremists view the world in such simple terms.
I guess compared to you, most people are pacifists, huh? If I don't advocate wiping out the same people you want to wipe out, then I must be a pacifist. It's how you can dismiss every single thing that anyone says who disagrees with you.
I have no problem with the statement that radical elements within Islam are a threat to the free world, and the US in particular. I think that radical elements within any religious group are a threat to the free world, including Jews. However, since we're talking about Islam: It is an issue we must deal with. Laying down all our arms and defenses would be silly. About as silly as thinking that invading their country, and risking killing innocent people, isn't going to make the problem bigger. Our long term peace will not be accomplished at gunpoint. It will begin with an acceptance of past mistakes, and a sincere effort to avoid them in the future. It will continue with trying to rebuild our standing with those people. We will not win back all of them. Extremists on both sides are probably a lost cause. Maybe we can stick all of you in the same place, and see what happens. Maybe your idea of fighting the enemy would change if the US military wasn't doing the fighting, and you had to do it yourself?
It's interesting to me that you went on such a tirade to point out how much the Jews want peace, and all you can talk about is wiping these people out.
Say what you mean. Do what you say.
Quote
Quote
if we stopped shooting and tried increasing the standard of living in problem areas there would be a significant drop in extremists views.
So we should expand government handouts to all people worldwide to make them like us?
If you give a man some fish....he can eat and you'll be feeding him for ever ..
If you give the man a rod and hook, he can catch the fish himself and live off of his own work.
If you shoot the fucker .... Problem Solved
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
sundevil777 102
QuoteSo rather than ask a question, you label me a pacifist. You still haven't asked anything, you just continue to label.
You replied with anger to a simple statement that the US shares responsibility for the current situation we find ourselves in. You generalize about Arabs. You don't respond to direct questions, and you twist the statements of others so that you can dismiss what is actually said.
I ignore nothing that I've said. The US does share responsibility for our current state of middle east affairs, including this misguided war. I never said it was possible to wage any war without innocents being killed, and even added that any war fought in the US would claim the lives of innocent people who do not share the same ideals as those in power. The 9/11 attacks are a perfect example of that scenario. When I asked you to provide the quote where I did state that, you quoted yourself.
You failed to reply to anything about your feelings about US responsibility. Your anger toward my original post seems extremist, as I feel only an extremist would claim any situation is black and white.QuoteQuote
I can only guess then that you feel the US has absolutely no responsibility for anything that's going on. We are actually the victims in all this. Every one of our bullets finds the proper target. Every bomb finds Al Qaeda.
This was my statement of how you were presenting yourself. How have you twisted this to be what I feel? Again, you ignore answering anything about what responsibility you feel the US has. So, again I will say the same thing: I can only assume that you feel the US is 100% in the right, the "Arabs" are 100% in the wrong. That's extremist. Exactly the same as them, just in a different religious package. Only extremists view the world in such simple terms.
I guess compared to you, most people are pacifists, huh? If I don't advocate wiping out the same people you want to wipe out, then I must be a pacifist. It's how you can dismiss every single thing that anyone says who disagrees with you.
I have no problem with the statement that radical elements within Islam are a threat to the free world, and the US in particular. I think that radical elements within any religious group are a threat to the free world, including Jews. However, since we're talking about Islam: It is an issue we must deal with. Laying down all our arms and defenses would be silly. About as silly as thinking that invading their country, and risking killing innocent people, isn't going to make the problem bigger. Our long term peace will not be accomplished at gunpoint. It will begin with an acceptance of past mistakes, and a sincere effort to avoid them in the future. It will continue with trying to rebuild our standing with those people. We will not win back all of them. Extremists on both sides are probably a lost cause. Maybe we can stick all of you in the same place, and see what happens. Maybe your idea of fighting the enemy would change if the US military wasn't doing the fighting, and you had to do it yourself?
It's interesting to me that you went on such a tirade to point out how much the Jews want peace, and all you can talk about is wiping these people out.
Wow, you talk about me being on a tirade!
QuoteI guess compared to you, most people are pacifists, huh?
No, just liberals. Most Americans aren't liberals, so...no, most people compared to me aren't pacifists. Hey, lookie there, you assumed something about me, and I responded to it without taking offense. You might try it. SC does allow us to make assumptions and "twist" the words of others, don't you know?
You repeatedly go on about the death of innocents in a war (as explanation for how we are responsible for what is going on there), so it would seem that you are stating that such deaths are not acceptable So make it clear, is the war in Afghanistan the "right" war as Obama says, or is it misguided/not acceptable/whatever for reasons including but not limited to the deaths of innocents?
QuoteI can only assume that you feel the US is 100% in the right, the "Arabs" are 100% in the wrong. That's extremist. Exactly the same as them, just in a different religious package. Only extremists view the world in such simple terms.
I said nothing like that, you're just assuming, as you said.
What is the purpose of reminding people that we've made mistakes/share some responsibility? Do you have a desire to educate the morons that don't already know that mistakes have been made before and during the war?
There are bad guys and good guys in the war we are fighting. Some, however, have a tough time realizing that and choosing sides. Apologizing for the mistakes and misdeeds that happen during a war does not stop a war unless both sides would actually prefer a negotiated settlement. Do you really think our enemy in this war prefers that? I think not, but of course we don't have to make our own conclusions, as they have made it clear by their own statements.
You say about radical islam that "It is an issue we must deal with." But how? You say, " Our long term peace will not be accomplished at gunpoint. It will begin with an acceptance of past mistakes, and a sincere effort to avoid them in the future. It will continue with trying to rebuild our standing with those people." Yea, right, Obama was has been doing a lot of apologizing, and promised to get the world to like us again, how has that worked out so far?
You say, " We will not win back all of them. Extremists on both sides are probably a lost cause." Damn right the islamofacists are a lost cause, and they cause a lot of big trouble and won't reconsider their extremism because of America admitting its mistakes. I think it will end when some Sadat-like leaders emerge. Sadat didn't have his change of heart because the Israelis were apologizing, he changed because he saw that war wasn't serving his people well, he realized his people could live in peace with the Jews. War pushed him to that realization.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
QuoteQuote
Quote
if we stopped shooting and tried increasing the standard of living in problem areas there would be a significant drop in extremists views.
So we should expand government handouts to all people worldwide to make them like us?
If you give a man some fish....he can eat and you'll be feeding him for ever ..
If you give the man a rod and hook, he can catch the fish himself and live off of his own work.
If you shoot the fucker .... Problem Solved
If you build a man a fire he'll be warm for a night.
If you SET a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Muff #5048
nerdgirl 0
QuoteIf you build a man a fire he'll be warm for a night.
If you SET a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Pretty confident it wasn’t intended as such … but that comment immediately reminded me of Paula Loyd (SSG, USAR).
Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
QuoteQuoteIf you build a man a fire he'll be warm for a night.
If you SET a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.
Pretty confident it wasn’t intended as such … but that comment immediately reminded me of Paula Loyd (SSG, USAR).
Marg
Nope. What I said was simply a joke and nothing more.
Muff #5048
nerdgirl 0
QuoteHate is born of arrogance, faith, and ignorance with no regard to logical thought, the three main tenants of most religions.
That reminds me of a conversation the other night I had with some Muslims here in Ankara regarding their domestic anti-secular, conservative movement. The latter is, in some ways, more democratic than the Ataturk-style alternative. Like so much of the real world, it doesn't simplify well to "us" versus "them."
QuoteQuote
if we stopped shooting and tried increasing the standard of living in problem areas there would be a significant drop in extremists views.
So we should expand government handouts to all people worldwide to make them like us?
Naw. If, however, their standard of living is increased they can buy more of our stuff and services.
We've actually done a pretty good job overall of raising the standard of living of large parts of the world's population. And the motivations were never, imo, purely driven by humanitarian concerns but rather recognition of the need for new markets and security.
In his inaugural speech and the speech in which the foundation of NATO was announced, President Harry S Truman spoke about "hand outs", i.e., non-military foreign aid, especially increasing S&T capacity, in very idealistic rhetoric:
“Fourth, we must embark on a bold new program for making the benefits of our scientific advances and industrial progress available for the improvement and growth of underdeveloped areas.Sounds idealistic, eh? Underlying the idealistic motivations of which President Truman spoke was also a reality of recognition of foreign aid as a means to create new markets. New markets of populations where people could buy things. Things that they like. New markets where people would buy American goods (predominantly in January 1949) and services.
“The United States is pre-eminent among nations in the development of industrial and scientific techniques. The material resources which we can afford to use for the assistance of other peoples are limited. But our imponderable resources in technical knowledge are constantly growing and are inexhaustible.
“With the cooperation of business, private capital, agriculture, and labor in this country, this program can greatly increase the industrial activity in other nations and can raise substantially their standards of living.”
Over sixty years ago President Truman recognized the connections between foreign aid, international economic development, and American economic growth.
The double-edged sword not recognized then was the globalization would eventually elevate other nation-states to the point of being (potential) competitors.
Marg
Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying
Darius11 12
QuoteHate is born of arrogance, faith, and ignorance with no regard to logical thought, the three main tenants of most religions.
REALLY so if someone drops a bomb that kills everyone you love you must be crazy to hate the people who did it, or religios?
There is no other reason???????????
QuoteSo we should expand government handouts to all people worldwide to make them like us?
Lets see in my mind there are so many things in-between killing thousands of people for lies, or giving them government handouts.
Honestly do you have any things to say that’s not a knee-jerk reaction?
Its not always all or nothing you do realize that right
?
QuoteExtremism in any form is not logical or rational which means that they generally can't be reasoned with.
How did someone become an extremist? Thats the point WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH
What makes the person so full of hate?
Some of you are trying to say it’s just a Muslim thing. That only proves to me you have no clue what you’re talking about. EVERY religion has contradiction in it. Some times talking about forgiveness and other times talking about killing someone for eating meat on Friday.
The point is what makes people extremists is not some mystery or a magic spell.
Its the conditions they live, and the suffering they have had to endure.
If you had a part of making people suffer then guess what there not going to like you .
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
sundevil777 102
There have been extremist/terrorists that were Christians, the IRA for example. Their goals, however, were limited and relatively reasonable, such as independence/self-determination from those that were ruling them. After getting that, the prior injustices were generally left behind and the sides that had been at war are on good terms, living peacefully. If I am wrong in this summary, of course let me know.
The islamofacists, however, aren't satisfied with having their own, independent nation, they want to change the world and install their own system on all. They want to do it by force. This is from their own proclamations. Huge difference, I think.
Those states and groups that want to kill Jews and destroy Israel want to do that not because of what has happened in the decades past 1948, they wanted it since the beginning of Israel (and even before). These islamofacists do not fit the mold of the oppressed group that is fighting back due injustices done to them. They just don't like how WWII ended and what the UN did after that. Repeated wars haven't worked for them, but they don't want to give up land/sovereignty when they lose the wars, they want a perpetual do-over until they get what they want.
Huge difference, I think.
The islamofacists, however, aren't satisfied with having their own, independent nation, they want to change the world and install their own system on all. They want to do it by force. This is from their own proclamations. Huge difference, I think.
Those states and groups that want to kill Jews and destroy Israel want to do that not because of what has happened in the decades past 1948, they wanted it since the beginning of Israel (and even before). These islamofacists do not fit the mold of the oppressed group that is fighting back due injustices done to them. They just don't like how WWII ended and what the UN did after that. Repeated wars haven't worked for them, but they don't want to give up land/sovereignty when they lose the wars, they want a perpetual do-over until they get what they want.
Huge difference, I think.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
Bolas 5
QuoteQuoteHate is born of arrogance, faith, and ignorance with no regard to logical thought, the three main tenants of most religions.
REALLY so if someone drops a bomb that kills everyone you love you must be crazy to hate the people who did it, or religios?
There is no other reason???????????
It all depends on what happened prior. By the time groups resort to violence and war, it's generally just escelated reactions. Root cause analysis generally points the initial cause to hate due to the reasons I sepcified above or more specifically religious hate.
QuoteQuoteSo we should expand government handouts to all people worldwide to make them like us?
Lets see in my mind there are so many things in-between killing thousands of people for lies, or giving them government handouts.
Honestly do you have any things to say that’s not a knee-jerk reaction?
Its not always all or nothing you do realize that right
?
Very true there are multiple courses of action, but some oversimplify it to "pay them" or "bomb them." Sometimes it's best to leave people be, but that only works if they do in kind.
Quote
QuoteExtremism in any form is not logical or rational which means that they generally can't be reasoned with.
How did someone become an extremist? Thats the point WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH
What makes the person so full of hate?
Some of you are trying to say it’s just a Muslim thing. That only proves to me you have no clue what you’re talking about. EVERY religion has contradiction in it. Some times talking about forgiveness and other times talking about killing someone for eating meat on Friday.
The point is what makes people extremists is not some mystery or a magic spell.
Its the conditions they live, and the suffering they have had to endure.
If you had a part of making people suffer then guess what there not going to like you .
Actually, it's not who makes them suffer that is important, it's who they believe and are told to believe is responsible. Keeping those people uneducated and oppressed makes them less likely to question which makes them more easily brainwashed and used to do the bidding of others.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
Darius11 12
QuoteThere have been extremist/terrorists that were Christians, the IRA for example. Their goals, however, were limited and relatively reasonable, such as independence/self-determination from those that were ruling them. After getting that, the prior injustices were generally left behind and the sides that had been at war are on good terms, living peacefully. If I am wrong in this summary, of course let me know.
In Large part yes. I am not going nit pick and bring examples where people of other faiths have killed others for not believing as they do. They are the minority. So yes i will say you are right for the most part.
QuoteThe islamofacists, however, aren't satisfied with having their own, independent nation, they want to change the world and install their own system on all. They want to do it by force. This is from their own proclamations. Huge difference, I think.
Well thats a good word. so yes i agree with you again ANY facisthas the same idea of be one of us or die. Can not be tolarated. So yes i agree.
If you would have said All arabs instead of "islamofacists" i would not.
QuoteThose states and groups that want to kill Jews and destroy Israel want to do that not because of what has happened in the decades past 1948, they wanted it since the beginning of Israel (and even before).
I disagree with you on this 100%. To me it is a land dispute that’s polluted by religion on both sides, not the other way around.
QuoteThese islamofacists do not fit the mold of the oppressed group that is fighting back due injustices done to them.
Not all Palestinians our islamofacists. They get treated like crap by the IDF, the IDF methods or MASSAD whatever form of them you wish to speak of are known world wide for their cruelty.
They are oppressed people in my book, and they are people who have been squeezed of there land.
QuoteThey just don't like how WWII ended and what the UN did after that.
True, do you think there feeling is unresonable?
If i were them i would feel like i got screwed who wouldn't?
QuoteRepeated wars haven't worked for them, but they don't want to give up land/sovereignty when they lose the wars, they want a perpetual do-over until they get what they want.
They are too weak to fight Israel, I mean there is no comparisons in military might.
Off course they want different things that’s why there is a dispute.
But I would also remind you that we are not just talking about the Palestinians on this thread and you should not group up all Arabs, or all Muslims, or all of anyone. When you do you share the same mind set just on the other side.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Bolas 5
QuoteThere have been extremist/terrorists that were Christians, the IRA for example. Their goals, however, were limited and relatively reasonable, such as independence/self-determination from those that were ruling them. After getting that, the prior injustices were generally left behind and the sides that had been at war are on good terms, living peacefully. If I am wrong in this summary, of course let me know.
The islamofacists, however, aren't satisfied with having their own, independent nation, they want to change the world and install their own system on all. They want to do it by force. This is from their own proclamations. Huge difference, I think.
Those states and groups that want to kill Jews and destroy Israel want to do that not because of what has happened in the decades past 1948, they wanted it since the beginning of Israel (and even before). These islamofacists do not fit the mold of the oppressed group that is fighting back due injustices done to them. They just don't like how WWII ended and what the UN did after that. Repeated wars haven't worked for them, but they don't want to give up land/sovereignty when they lose the wars, they want a perpetual do-over until they get what they want.
Huge difference, I think.
+1. World domination is not only an unreasonable demand, it's also completely impossible apart from world destruction.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
Darius11 12
QuoteIt all depends on what happened prior. By the time groups resort to violence and war, it's generally just escelated reactions. Root cause analysis generally points the initial cause to hate due to the reasons I sepcified above or more specifically religious hate.
I just disagree with you.
I feel like there are actual reasons why people feel the hate. I don’t think the hate would exists just if they had religion, however I do believe the hate would be there if the actions still occurred and the people were atheists.
I think it is humane reaction to not like or wish to retaliate against people who have hurt you or your loved ones.
QuoteVery true there are multiple courses of action, but some oversimplify it to "pay them" or "bomb them." Sometimes it's best to leave people be, but that only works if they do in kind.
yep at times i wish we did.
It is also that when we have gotten involved the reasons are not exactly honorable. It is usually because we need something and the honorable reasons are often just a cover so we can feel like were doing the right thing.
QuoteActually, it's not who makes them suffer that is important, it's who they believe and are told to believe is responsible.
I think it might be different on a case by case basis. If a kid sees his dad get killed by an IDF he is not going to care about what is happening other then that person killed my dad. When you add that environment and groups set in place who use such events as reasons for recruitment I can see why a kid might join HAMAS. Is that the smart choice no but if that’s what you’re exposed to your whole life then chances are most of us would make the same choice. People are as good as their options.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
sundevil777 102
QuoteNot all Palestinians our islamofacists. They get treated like crap by the IDF, the IDF methods or MASSAD whatever form of them you wish to speak of are known world wide for their cruelty.
They are oppressed people in my book, and they are people who have been squeezed of there land.
Of course not all Palestinians are islamofacists, we shouldn't have to split hairs like that. But why isn't the Israeli's response explained away by what has been done to them by their neighbors? It explains what the radical islamists do, as you have said, right?
QuoteThey just don't like how WWII ended and what the UN did after that.
True, do you think there feeling is unresonable?
If i were them i would feel like i got screwed who wouldn't?
Yes, I think their feeling is unreasonable. They didn't get screwed out of their land by the Israelis, the UN did it, and it wasn't their land anyway, it was the Brits that controlled it after WWI. They decided the mandate between the wars, and then the UN decided to create Israel. A LOT of things changed in WWI and II - national boundaries all over the world changed. Why should the arab states get to go terrorist after they refused to participate in the UN action at the time. They promised to go to war, they did repeatedly, lost repeatedly, but still want a do-over. I say tough shit.
QuoteThey are too weak to fight Israel, I mean there is no comparisons in military might.
That wasn't true when the wars started after Israel was created. What do you think would have happened if Israel had lost? Do you think there would have been a genocide?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
Bolas 5
QuoteQuoteIt all depends on what happened prior. By the time groups resort to violence and war, it's generally just escelated reactions. Root cause analysis generally points the initial cause to hate due to the reasons I sepcified above or more specifically religious hate.
I just disagree with you.
I feel like there are actual reasons why people feel the hate. I don’t think the hate would exists just if they had religion, however I do believe the hate would be there if the actions still occurred and the people were atheists.
Possibly, but atheists tend not to want to die even if they believe strongly in a cause as they have no afterlife. The whole reincarnation, heaven, 72 virgins thing just isn't effective as an incentive.
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I think it is humane reaction to not like or wish to retaliate against people who have hurt you or your loved ones.QuoteVery true there are multiple courses of action, but some oversimplify it to "pay them" or "bomb them." Sometimes it's best to leave people be, but that only works if they do in kind.
yep at times i wish we did.
Humane maybe, reasonable, not really which is why conflicts escelate and continue. Depending on the opponent, showing humanity can be considered a weakness they can exploit,
Quote
It is also that when we have gotten involved the reasons are not exactly honorable. It is usually because we need something and the honorable reasons are often just a cover so we can feel like were doing the right thing.
That can be true for any side of a conflict. The quest for greed and power in the name of justice, freedom, Allah, Jesus, God, etc.
QuoteActually, it's not who makes them suffer that is important, it's who they believe and are told to believe is responsible.
Quote
I think it might be different on a case by case basis. If a kid sees his dad get killed by an IDF he is not going to care about what is happening other then that person killed my dad. When you add that environment and groups set in place who use such events as reasons for recruitment I can see why a kid might join HAMAS. Is that the smart choice no but if that’s what you’re exposed to your whole life then chances are most of us would make the same choice. People are as good as their options.
Agreed. To the person witnessing the attack it is black and white and whatever group is trying to recruit them wants to keep it that simple for them. No mention about all the people their own gov't has done horrible things to, or what was done prior that prompted that attack...
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
Darius11 12
You know I can see where you are coming from.
You think hey you (the Arab nations) tried to fuck me and I was stronger so they got fucked instead deal with it.
I can agree with that. That’s the way the world works.
I might be thinking a little bit Disney like my self on this issue. I guess the satiation sucks.
I hate to see people suffer and apart of me feel a kid born in Gaza has zero chance at getting anywhere in life, and many chances to develop hate.
Is it fair no but what is.
I think they have every right to feel like they got screwed. It was land they were living on that was given away by the UN. The reason they are mad at the Israelis is they are the ones who benefited from this decision, and they were the ones they could retaliate against.
But like I said before I think this is a land dispute pullulated by religion on both sides.
If Israel would have lost? I don’t think they would have let that happen, and by they I mean the powers of the world at the time. This is after everyone had found out that the horrible stories about the camps were true and even worst then anyone had ever imagined. I just don’t think the world would sit still again and watch a bunch of people get massacred.
I think your right there would have been a huge loss of life and a lot of it would have been inocent lives lost. That would have been horrible.
Such a complicated issuie
You think hey you (the Arab nations) tried to fuck me and I was stronger so they got fucked instead deal with it.
I can agree with that. That’s the way the world works.
I might be thinking a little bit Disney like my self on this issue. I guess the satiation sucks.
I hate to see people suffer and apart of me feel a kid born in Gaza has zero chance at getting anywhere in life, and many chances to develop hate.
Is it fair no but what is.
QuoteYes, I think their feeling is unreasonable. They didn't get screwed out of their land by the Israelis, the UN did it, and it wasn't their land anyway, it was the Brits that controlled it after WWI. They decided the mandate between the wars, and then the UN decided to create Israel. A LOT of things changed in WWI and II - national boundaries all over the world changed. Why should the arab states get to go terrorist after they refused to participate in the UN action at the time. They promised to go to war, they did repeatedly, lost repeatedly, but still want a do-over. I say tough shit.
I think they have every right to feel like they got screwed. It was land they were living on that was given away by the UN. The reason they are mad at the Israelis is they are the ones who benefited from this decision, and they were the ones they could retaliate against.
But like I said before I think this is a land dispute pullulated by religion on both sides.
QuoteThat wasn't true when the wars started after Israel was created. What do you think would have happened if Israel had lost? Do you think there would have been a genocide
If Israel would have lost? I don’t think they would have let that happen, and by they I mean the powers of the world at the time. This is after everyone had found out that the horrible stories about the camps were true and even worst then anyone had ever imagined. I just don’t think the world would sit still again and watch a bunch of people get massacred.
I think your right there would have been a huge loss of life and a lot of it would have been inocent lives lost. That would have been horrible.
Such a complicated issuie
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Darius11 12
QuotePossibly, but atheists tend not to want to die even if they believe strongly in a cause as they have no afterlife. The whole reincarnation, heaven, 72 virgins thing just isn't effective as an incentive.
Good point !
Would an atheist ever risk his/her life for the greater good of mankind? Or when it comes to the ultimate sacrifice it is simply a sacrifice they would not make for anyone? Just curios.
QuoteAgreed. To the person witnessing the attack it is black and white and whatever group is trying to recruit them wants to keep it that simple for them. No mention about all the people their own gov't has done horrible things to, or what was done prior that prompted that attack...
Yep and i think all goverment leaders are guilty of this to a certine degree.
I agree with every thing else you said. Rational arguments my good sir.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Bolas 5
QuoteQuotePossibly, but atheists tend not to want to die even if they believe strongly in a cause as they have no afterlife. The whole reincarnation, heaven, 72 virgins thing just isn't effective as an incentive.
Good point !
Would an atheist ever risk his/her life for the greater good of mankind? Or when it comes to the ultimate sacrifice it is simply a sacrifice they would not make for anyone? Just curios.
Possibly but it would be a selfless sacrifice whereas a religious matyr may be convinced to do it for strictly selfish reasons.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
You said:
and:
and in reply to my question...Do you have a problem acknowledging that radical islam is a great threat to the free world and is waging war against it?
you said:
I put those together and conclude that you should be a pacifist, even though you recognize that radical islam is a great threat and is waging war against us. A true pacifist is one that will be so even in the face of the recognized threat, as you have admitted. You don't want to have the innocents killed by your own actions in a war, so how would you avoid that? You avoid that by not going to war.
So, I've directly quoted you, as you so strenuously requested. I think my conclusion is reasonable, but will expect a reply which ignores your own statements and insults me instead.
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