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Andy9o8 2
QuoteIf you read the law as you stated then you know that the law clearly states that the police can only ask about someone’s immigration statues if they have already broken the law. That means Police can not pull you over because you’re brown. However if you do something that requires there attention then they are allowed to ask about your immigration status.
And if you've read any of my posts in all the immigration threads, you'd know that I've specifically debunked this talking point, as naive, about 23 times. Do a search; I'm tired of typing it.
muff528 3
QuoteQuoteIf you read the law as you stated then you know that the law clearly states that the police can only ask about someone’s immigration statues if they have already broken the law. That means Police can not pull you over because you’re brown. However if you do something that requires there attention then they are allowed to ask about your immigration status.
And if you've read any of my posts in all the immigration threads, you'd know that I've specifically debunked this talking point, as naive, about 23 times. Do a search; I'm tired of typing it.
What about the 2nd half or Darius11's post? What is your idea of a reasonable way to enforce our immigration laws? Or should we scrap immigration law as it exists and re-write it? How should illegals who are already here be brought into compliance? Blanket amnesty,... again? Should (specifically, Mexican) immigrants be given something like "refugee" status considering their "government" which is either corrupt or utterly incompetent?
Also, if Darius11's first paragraph is just a "naive" talking point, how is the absense of the law (that "clearly states that the police can only ask about someone's immigration status if they have already broken the law") going to protect people from being profiled and stopped by the same racist police?
DanG 1
QuoteMy only problem is that since American citizens are not required to carry ID of any sort, how does one prove citizenship or identification on the street without being detained until "proof" can be secured. You can't so it's a Catch 22.
That's my problem with it as well.
QuoteThe simple solution is to carry citizenship and ID papers in your wallet. Not a big deal, eh?
Not a big deal if you don't mind living in a police state. I'll pass, thank you.
- Dan G
turtlespeed 220
QuoteQuoteIf you read the law as you stated then you know that the law clearly states that the police can only ask about someone’s immigration statues if they have already broken the law. That means Police can not pull you over because you’re brown. However if you do something that requires there attention then they are allowed to ask about your immigration status.
And if you've read any of my posts in all the immigration threads, you'd know that I've specifically debunked this talking point, as naive, about 23 times. Do a search; I'm tired of typing it.
. . . and the response to your debunkment was "prove it."
No one here doubts that there may be some limited cases of which you speak. Look on the bright side, we could use those incidents to better the departments and weed out the bad apples.
Fully 1/3 of the AZ DPS is of Latin decent. I don't really see where profiling has much to stand on here, unless the gringos do all the profiling, right?
All that aside, AZ has no authority to actually do ANY of the deportation, only turning suspected illegals over to the federal government for processing and verification.
It may not be the individual that has directly caused this problem to escalate to this point. It may only be the politicians that have let things get to this point. But things have escalated to this point and most Americans believe it is the right thing to do. It is WAY PAST time to fix the problem. This is the best solution there is at this point, as it is the only one that involves actual action.
Sorry if I have little sympathy for a little inconvenience that it will take in order to make the US a better place, and reduce the occurances of people doing illegal and unlawful things in our coutry.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
QuoteQuoteOur biggest problems are... too many 'bleeding hearts' and too many spineless, money grubbing politicians!!!
Hear! Hear!
I was in Germany in '72. The Polizei simply walked up to me on the street and asked if I had papers. No, I did not. I was there illegally since my visa had run out and I had lost my passport. Arrested for immigration violation and deported. No muss, no fuss, and rightfully done.
Kudos to AZ. Screw you bleeding hearts. All you're doing is encouraging illegals to continue on...business as usual.
My only problem is that since American citizens are not required to carry ID of any sort, how does one prove citizenship or identification on the street without being detained until "proof" can be secured. You can't so it's a Catch 22.
The simple solution is to carry citizenship and ID papers in your wallet. Not a big deal, eh?
#1!!!
I don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification. As you pointed-out, every other country in the world does it. I don't see it infringing on my rights, either. I'm a natural born citizen of the U.S.A and proud of it. An ID card doesn't take-up that much room in a wallet. Any time you get stopped for a driving infraction, you must show a valid driver's license and proof of insurance and maybe, the registration for the vehicle. What's the difference? I guess, some folks are just too good for that and just can't be bothered.
Chuck
QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you read the law as you stated then you know that the law clearly states that the police can only ask about someone’s immigration statues if they have already broken the law. That means Police can not pull you over because you’re brown. However if you do something that requires there attention then they are allowed to ask about your immigration status.
And if you've read any of my posts in all the immigration threads, you'd know that I've specifically debunked this talking point, as naive, about 23 times. Do a search; I'm tired of typing it.
. . . and the response to your debunkment was "prove it."
No one here doubts that there may be some limited cases of which you speak. Look on the bright side, we could use those incidents to better the departments and weed out the bad apples.
Fully 1/3 of the AZ DPS is of Latin decent. I don't really see where profiling has much to stand on here, unless the gringos do all the profiling, right?
All that aside, AZ has no authority to actually do ANY of the deportation, only turning suspected illegals over to the federal government for processing and verification.
It may not be the individual that has directly caused this problem to escalate to this point. It may only be the politicians that have let things get to this point. But things have escalated to this point and most Americans believe it is the right thing to do. It is WAY PAST time to fix the problem. This is the best solution there is at this point, as it is the only one that involves actual action.
Sorry if I have little sympathy for a little inconvenience that it will take in order to make the US a better place, and reduce the occurances of people doing illegal and unlawful things in our coutry.
It appears to me, that too many people in this country are too willing to just let anyone into this country... with a just 'come on in' attitude. Meanwhile, we are getting an element coming into this country illegally who have absolutely no interest in helping or improving our country but rather to take all they can get while breaking our laws. What absolutely astounds me is, the number of people in this country who make excuses for them and actually help them. They should be charged wit 'aiding and abetting'! Just because some people in this country haven't been directly affected by the criminal element coming into this country, doesn't mean it doesn't exist... it's growing at a rapid rate.
We have some very good immigration laws on the books already. We don't need more, we just need to strictly enforce the laws we have.
Chuck
pirana 0
QuoteThe simple solution is to carry citizenship and ID papers in your wallet. Not a big deal, eh?
Not a big deal if you don't mind living in a police state. I'll pass, thank you.
Do people think that being required to carry an ID would make us a police state? I guess first we'd need to define what constitutes a police state.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
Andy9o8 2
QuoteI don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification.
OK, let's say you're walking down a public street in the US (not driving a motor vehicle, which requires a license) and are stopped and asked to prove your citizenship. But dang, you left your wallet, with your Official Government-issued Citizenship Card and your driver's license at home. Solely for that, you're arrested and taken down to the police station. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're willing to live in a different United States of America than I am.
turtlespeed 220
QuoteQuoteI don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification.
OK, let's say you're walking down a public street in the US (not driving a motor vehicle, which requires a license) and are stopped and asked to prove your citizenship. But dang, you left your wallet, with your Official Government-issued Citizenship Card and your driver's license at home. Solely for that, you're arrested and taken down to the police station. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're willing to live in a different United States of America than I am.
There are other ways to verify your status.
1) Social Security Number: Do you know what your social security number is? (We had to memorize ours in the 4th grade) SSN could be substituted with green card number, passport, or anything that applies.
2) Do you know what your drivers liscense is? (I thought it was a good idea to memorize it, just in case it was lost or stolen - perhaps I am the only one in the world smart enough to figure this one out
)
3) Do you know what your state issued ID card number is? (Not a requirement, but most people have them if they want to do anything like cashing a check or - I dunno - have a job)
Do you know that there are computers that can pull up that information in the DPS vehicle? They should also have the picture that goes along with that ID info.
You CAN NOT be that naive! You have to know that there are other ways of verification.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
DanG 1
QuoteDo people think that being required to carry an ID would make us a police state? I guess first we'd need to define what constitutes a police state.
To me, if the authorities can deprive me of my freedom because I can't prove my innocence, we would be living in a police state. In America, the burden to prove guilt should be on the state. In a police state, the burden is shifted to the individual to prove innocence.
The Arizona law assumes that anyone who can't prove that they are here legally, must be here illegally, and they must be detained. That should scare people. I think the only reason it doesn't is because people assume that the law only affects illegals. It doesn't. It affects everyone.
The other aspect of this law that troubles me is that a third party can be convincted of abeting an illegal if he fails to report. The other aspect of the police state mentality is that we are all expected to spy on and report our neighbors to the authorities, or we will be guilty ourselves.
- Dan G
BillyVance 34
I am just spouting off, but I'd like to see that sheriff Arpaio set up a big camp just for the illegal immigrants if they are caught. Make them work chain gangs cleaning up highways, etc. Make them all wear pink striped uniforms.
He's done a great job with his jail methods, controversial as it is, IMO.
He's done a great job with his jail methods, controversial as it is, IMO.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteThere are other ways to verify your status.
1) Social Security Number: Do you know what your social security number is? (We had to memorize ours in the 4th grade) SSN could be substituted with green card number, passport, or anything that applies.
2) Do you know what your drivers liscense is? (I thought it was a good idea to memorize it, just in case it was lost or stolen - perhaps I am the only one in the world smart enough to figure this one out)
3) Do you know what your state issued ID card number is? (Not a requirement, but most people have them if they want to do anything like cashing a check or - I dunno - have a job)
Do you know that there are computers that can pull up that information in the DPS vehicle? They should also have the picture that goes along with that ID info.
You CAN NOT be that naive! You have to know that there are other ways of verification.
Then once verified, you tattoo it on their arm, that would prevent any subsequent checks. Or maybe a little chip, so a simple swipe of a wand can verify.
DanG 1
I don't have a problem punishing illegals if they are caught. I think a chain gang if your only offense is being here illegally is a little harsh, but whatever.
I have a problem with law abiding citizens being deprived of their rights in order to catch bad guys. That concern includes any bad guys, not just illegal aliens. Just like I wouldn't want to be required to prove I'm not a thief or murderer every time I get pulled over, I shouldn't be required to prove I'm not tresspassing.
- Dan G
I have a problem with law abiding citizens being deprived of their rights in order to catch bad guys. That concern includes any bad guys, not just illegal aliens. Just like I wouldn't want to be required to prove I'm not a thief or murderer every time I get pulled over, I shouldn't be required to prove I'm not tresspassing.
- Dan G
turtlespeed 220
QuoteQuoteThere are other ways to verify your status.
1) Social Security Number: Do you know what your social security number is? (We had to memorize ours in the 4th grade) SSN could be substituted with green card number, passport, or anything that applies.
2) Do you know what your drivers liscense is? (I thought it was a good idea to memorize it, just in case it was lost or stolen - perhaps I am the only one in the world smart enough to figure this one out)
3) Do you know what your state issued ID card number is? (Not a requirement, but most people have them if they want to do anything like cashing a check or - I dunno - have a job)
Do you know that there are computers that can pull up that information in the DPS vehicle? They should also have the picture that goes along with that ID info.
You CAN NOT be that naive! You have to know that there are other ways of verification.
Then once verified, you tattoo it on their arm, that would prevent any subsequent checks. Or maybe a little chip, so a simple swipe of a wand can verify.
That was an ignorant post, fear monger much?
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
quade 4
QuoteThen once verified, you tattoo it on their arm, that would prevent any subsequent checks. Or maybe a little chip, so a simple swipe of a wand can verify.
Or just require them to wear some sort of symbol on their clothing. A yellow Magen David or pink triangle . . . wait . . . wrong group, wrong century.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
DanG 1
The basic problem, that I said above, is that I shouldn't be required to prove that I didn't break the law. The government should be required to prove that I did.
It's a fundamental difference, and IMO a very important distinction.
- Dan G
It's a fundamental difference, and IMO a very important distinction.
- Dan G
turtlespeed 220
QuoteI don't have a problem punishing illegals if they are caught. I think a chain gang if your only offense is being here illegally is a little harsh, but whatever.
I have a problem with law abiding citizens being deprived of their rights in order to catch bad guys. That concern includes any bad guys, not just illegal aliens. Just like I wouldn't want to be required to prove I'm not a thief or murderer every time I get pulled over, I shouldn't be required to prove I'm not tresspassing.
When I lived in Dallas, I was pulled over and detained for about an hour, exteremly inconvenient.
Then I found out that I was being detained because I matched the discription and so did my vehicle, of a man wanted for questioning in connection to a rape/murder. They called and verified my whereabouts and I went on my way, no harm, no foul, and I was all the happier for it.
I'll tell you why.
Although it was inconvenient as hell, it made me feel better that the police were out doing their jobs, and doing them well.
BTW - The description I matched was of a Hispanic male, 30 - 35 driving a green 1/4 ton pickup truck . . .
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
Hear! Hear!
I was in Germany in '72. The Polizei simply walked up to me on the street and asked if I had papers. No, I did not. I was there illegally since my visa had run out and I had lost my passport. Arrested for immigration violation and deported. No muss, no fuss, and rightfully done.
Kudos to AZ. Screw you bleeding hearts. All you're doing is encouraging illegals to continue on...business as usual.
My only problem is that since American citizens are not required to carry ID of any sort, how does one prove citizenship or identification on the street without being detained until "proof" can be secured. You can't so it's a Catch 22.
The simple solution is to carry citizenship and ID papers in your wallet. Not a big deal, eh?
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
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