Satire and Truth

[Darius11 12]

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I don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification.

OK, let's say you're walking down a public street in the US (not driving a motor vehicle, which requires a license) and are stopped and asked to prove your citizenship. But dang, you left your wallet, with your Official Government-issued Citizenship Card and your driver's license at home. Solely for that, you're arrested and taken down to the police station. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're willing to live in a different United States of America than I am.

I have no idea what you claim to have debunked. I must have missed it sorry.

I read the law and the portion which states that the person must have committed another crime. You CAN NOT just go up to someone "who is walking down the street" and ask are you a citizen or not? Now if they snatched a purse and you grab them then yes you can ask.

Show me your debunk?
give me the link, or an idea of what your talking about.

I think the last part of your paragraph kind of separates us. I trust that most police are smart enough to know who to be suspicious of, and guess what if they make a mistake they haven’t shot you. You just need your papers which you should have somewhere.

For me a minor inconvenience is worth enforcing the law and making my country stronger. Specilly when the law makes sense.

Did you know I have to have license on me when I drive? Its really hard but I manage to do it. Some Dropzones even want to see your USPA card I have that too.
I think you guys are just looking for bullshit reasons make your self feel better.
I mean seriously do you have any idea what every other country in the world does?

How hard do you think Mexico guards their southern boarder?

What’s your solution?

Do you understand that it is illegal to be here illegally? What should you do about the people who brake the law?

And the America I am aware of is a country of laws, not a Disney cartoon.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

If the police have a description of a Hispanic individual, underdetmined gender, undetermined age, undetermined vehicle, who they believe is an illegal immigrant, under the new law that gives them authority (actually requires them) to pull over every Hispanic person and detain him/her until he/she can prove that he/she is a legal resident or citizen.

And then they get a report of an illegal Canadian in the area. Happens to be white, so they are now required to pull over all the white people, too.

And if they don't do this, any Arizona resident can sue the police department for failing to enforce the law.

This law sucks.

- Dan G

[Darius11 12]

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Then once verified, you tattoo it on their arm, that would prevent any subsequent checks. Or maybe a little chip, so a simple swipe of a wand can verify.

Or just require them to wear some sort of symbol on their clothing. A yellow Magen David or pink triangle . . . wait . . . wrong group, wrong century.

WOW
Do you have a picture of President Obama with a Hitler mustache??????????

You just put your self in the same mental group as people who do in my book.

Sorry to see that.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

Did you read my reply? This law infringes everyone's rights, not just the illegals.

And again, you do not have to have broken a law, the poice just need to be in lawful contact. That's a hell of a lot broader.

You say you read the law. Read it again.

- Dan G

[muff528 3]

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I don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification.

OK, let's say you're walking down a public street in the US (not driving a motor vehicle, which requires a license) and are stopped and asked to prove your citizenship. But dang, you left your wallet, with your Official Government-issued Citizenship Card and your driver's license at home. Solely for that, you're arrested and taken down to the police station. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're willing to live in a different United States of America than I am.

There are other ways to verify your status.
1) Social Security Number: Do you know what your social security number is? (We had to memorize ours in the 4th grade) SSN could be substituted with green card number, passport, or anything that applies.

2) Do you know what your drivers liscense is? (I thought it was a good idea to memorize it, just in case it was lost or stolen - perhaps I am the only one in the world smart enough to figure this one out)

3) Do you know what your state issued ID card number is? (Not a requirement, but most people have them if they want to do anything like cashing a check or - I dunno - have a job)

Do you know that there are computers that can pull up that information in the DPS vehicle? They should also have the picture that goes along with that ID info.

You CAN NOT be that naive! You have to know that there are other ways of verification.

This guy walking down the street doesn't need a drivers license, ID card, check cashing card or any other "papers". Unless he's breaking a law there is no reason to be stopped by anyone in the first place....even/especially to provide proof of citizenship. I don't think we really want to go down that road. I have no problem with discovering his immigration status and dealing with that issue after he's detained or arrested in the course of an investigation for an actual infraction or crime.

[quade 4]

I'm sorry to see you don't see the parallel.

Perhaps a visit to the Holocaust Museum is in order. It started by people wandering the countryside with 3x5 index cards keeping track of who was and wasn't "pure."

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Darius11 12]

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I'm sorry to see you don't see the parallel.

I don’t man. Not at all.

One was fueled by the idea that a race is better then others, and the other is about enforcing the law the same law that every other country enforces.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have boarders or to kick out people who have entered your country illegally.
It is done by all

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[turtlespeed 220]

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If the police have a description of a Hispanic individual, underdetmined gender, undetermined age, undetermined vehicle, who they believe is an illegal immigrant, under the new law that gives them authority (actually requires them) to pull over every Hispanic person and detain him/her until he/she can prove that he/she is a legal resident or citizen.

And then they get a report of an illegal Canadian in the area. Happens to be white, so they are now required to pull over all the white people, too.

And if they don't do this, any Arizona resident can sue the police department for failing to enforce the law.

This law sucks.

I have read the bill twice.
I never saw any language in it where they are required to pull every one over that fits a discription under threat of suit.
That is just a BS terror tactic to sway the uninformed to your way of thinking.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bolas 5]

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If the police have a description of a Hispanic individual, underdetmined gender, undetermined age, undetermined vehicle, who they believe is an illegal immigrant, under the new law that gives them authority (actually requires them) to pull over every Hispanic person and detain him/her until he/she can prove that he/she is a legal resident or citizen.

And then they get a report of an illegal Canadian in the area. Happens to be white, so they are now required to pull over all the white people, too.

And if they don't do this, any Arizona resident can sue the police department for failing to enforce the law.

This law sucks.

I have read the bill twice.
I never saw any language in it where they are required to pull every one over that fits a discription under threat of suit.
That is just a BS terror tactic to sway the uninformed to your way of thinking.

Not to mention impractical and impossible to enforce as a description of only the race of the person is not enought to go on to search in most areas.

The "burden of proof" argument is BS as well as it's black and white. You can either prove to them you're a legal citizen through identification (could still be false) or you can't.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Darius11 12]

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If the police have a description of a Hispanic individual, underdetmined gender, undetermined age, undetermined vehicle, who they believe is an illegal immigrant, under the new law that gives them authority (actually requires them) to pull over every Hispanic person and detain him/her until he/she can prove that he/she is a legal resident or citizen.

And then they get a report of an illegal Canadian in the area. Happens to be white, so they are now required to pull over all the white people, too.

And if they don't do this, any Arizona resident can sue the police department for failing to enforce the law.

This law sucks.

I have read the bill twice.
I never saw any language in it where they are required to pull every one over that fits a discription under threat of suit.
That is just a BS terror tactic to sway the uninformed to your way of thinking.

There is explicit language in the bill to say you cant do that. That’s why I am lost at these guys.
Also the AZ bill is writen just like the fed. law.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

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Section 11-1051 (effective 90 days after the end of the current Arizona legislative session).

A. No official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may limit or restrict the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law.

B. For any lawful stop, detention or arrest made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation. Any person who is arrested shall have the person’s immigration status determined before the person is released. The person’s immigration status shall be verified with the federal government pursuant to 8 United States code section 1373(c). A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. A person is presumed to not be an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States if the person provides to the law enforcement officer or agency any of the following:

1. A valid Arizona driver license.
2. A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
3. A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

Here's the passage that says they have to check everybody they come in contact with. Note: I don't think my VA driver's license is good enough.

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H. A person who is a legal resident of this state may bring an action in superior court to challenge any official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state that adopts or implements a policy that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws including 8 United States Code sections 1373 and 1644, to less than the full extent permitted by federal law. If there is a judicial finding that an entity has violated this section, the court shall order that the entity pay a civil penalty of not less than five hundred dollars and not more than five thousand dollars for each day that the policy has remained in effect after the filing of an action pursuant to this subsection.

A resident can sue for lack of enforcement.

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13-2929. Unlawful transporting, moving, concealing, harboring or shielding of unlawful aliens; vehicle impoundment; classification

A. It is unlawful for a person who is in violation of a criminal offense to:

1. Transport or move or attempt to transport or move an alien in this state in a means of transportation if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that the alien has come to, has entered or remains in the United States in violation of law.
2. Conceal, harbor or shield or attempt to conceal, harbor or shield an alien from detection in any place in this state, including any building or any means of transportation, if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that the alien has come to, has entered or remains in the United States in violation of law.
3. Encourage or induce an alien to come to or reside in this state if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that such coming to, entering or residing in this state is or will be in violation of law.

Paragraph 2: you must rat out your neighbor.

- Dan G

[mnealtx 0]

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Here's the passage that says they have to check everybody they come in contact with.

"any lawful stop, detention or arrest" doesn't equal "every person they see walking down the street", sorry.

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Note: I don't think my VA driver's license is good enough.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a driver's license is still a 'state or local government issued identification'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DanG 1]

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"any lawful stop, detention or arrest" doesn't equal "every person they see walking down the street", sorry.

Sorry, but you don't need much probably cause to stop someone on the street. At that point, the law kicks in. Do you really think it would be a stretch for a cop to come up with probable cause to stop someone if he wanted to? Ever watch "COPS"? Most of the stops start with, "That guy just failed to use his turn signal, I'm going to pull him over and check him out."

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I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a driver's license is still a 'state or local government issued identification'.

It doesn't say that any state or local ID will do, only state or local ID's where proof of citizenship is required to obtain it. I'm not sure if that was required for me to get my driver's license.

- Dan G

[masterrig 1]

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I don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification.

OK, let's say you're walking down a public street in the US (not driving a motor vehicle, which requires a license) and are stopped and asked to prove your citizenship. But dang, you left your wallet, with your Official Government-issued Citizenship Card and your driver's license at home. Solely for that, you're arrested and taken down to the police station. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're willing to live in a different United States of America than I am.

Excuse me but... BULLSHIT! You folks out there, scared to death that all of a sudden, we're going to turn into a police state is totally un-founded fear and rumor mongering. Gimme a break! If, it does come to where we can be stopped and asked for proof of citizenship... just make sure you have your paperwork with you. Otherwise, sit in the slammer till they run your name through their records and kick your own ass for being forgetful.


Chuck

[billvon 2,994]

> If, it does come to where we can be stopped and asked for proof of
>citizenship... just make sure you have your paperwork with you.

Do you have your paperwork with you?

[masterrig 1]

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Did you read my reply? This law infringes everyone's rights, not just the illegals.

And again, you do not have to have broken a law, the poice just need to be in lawful contact. That's a hell of a lot broader.

You say you read the law. Read it again.

What's the problem? This law makes everyone equal in the eyes of the 'law'. Isn't that what we all have been wanting lo, all these years.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

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> If, it does come to where we can be stopped and asked for proof of
>citizenship... just make sure you have your paperwork with you.

Do you have your paperwork with you?

As a matter of fact... I do! I'm good to go!


Chuck

[Andy9o8 2]

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I don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification.

OK, let's say you're walking down a public street in the US (not driving a motor vehicle, which requires a license) and are stopped and asked to prove your citizenship. But dang, you left your wallet, with your Official Government-issued Citizenship Card and your driver's license at home. Solely for that, you're arrested and taken down to the police station. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're willing to live in a different United States of America than I am.

Excuse me but... BULLSHIT! You folks out there, scared to death that all of a sudden, we're going to turn into a police state is totally un-founded fear and rumor mongering. Gimme a break! If, it does come to where we can be stopped and asked for proof of citizenship... just make sure you have your paperwork with you. Otherwise, sit in the slammer till they run your name through their records and kick your own ass for being forgetful.

No personal disrespect, Chuck, but I call bullshit to your bullshit. If you're willing to have a country where a citizen must always carry his "papers" with him while he's walking down a public street, or sit in the slammer for failing to do so, then - as I said - you're willing to accept a different United States of America than I am.

[masterrig 1]

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I don't have a problem with being asked for proof of citizenship or identification.

OK, let's say you're walking down a public street in the US (not driving a motor vehicle, which requires a license) and are stopped and asked to prove your citizenship. But dang, you left your wallet, with your Official Government-issued Citizenship Card and your driver's license at home. Solely for that, you're arrested and taken down to the police station. If you don't have a problem with that, then you're willing to live in a different United States of America than I am.

Excuse me but... BULLSHIT! You folks out there, scared to death that all of a sudden, we're going to turn into a police state is totally un-founded fear and rumor mongering. Gimme a break! If, it does come to where we can be stopped and asked for proof of citizenship... just make sure you have your paperwork with you. Otherwise, sit in the slammer till they run your name through their records and kick your own ass for being forgetful.

No personal disrespect, Chuck, but I call bullshit to your bullshit. If you're willing to have a country where a citizen must always carry his "papers" with him while he's walking down a public street, or sit in the slammer for failing to do so, then - as I said - you're willing to accept a different United States of America than I am.

All bullshit aside... It's done in every other country in the world. We're just a little behind things in that regard. When you go to Mexico or Europe... don't you carry the necessary paperwork to prove who you are? I think, you're putting the cart before the horse. That's o.k., too. I just don't have a problem with it.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

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If the police have a description of a Hispanic individual, underdetmined gender, undetermined age, undetermined vehicle, who they believe is an illegal immigrant, under the new law that gives them authority (actually requires them) to pull over every Hispanic person and detain him/her until he/she can prove that he/she is a legal resident or citizen.

And then they get a report of an illegal Canadian in the area. Happens to be white, so they are now required to pull over all the white people, too.

And if they don't do this, any Arizona resident can sue the police department for failing to enforce the law.

This law sucks.

I have read the bill twice.
I never saw any language in it where they are required to pull every one over that fits a discription under threat of suit.
That is just a BS terror tactic to sway the uninformed to your way of thinking.

There is explicit language in the bill to say you cant do that. That’s why I am lost at these guys.
Also the AZ bill is writen just like the fed. law.

Also, local police agengies may also enforce the federal laws. They are doing that now in regard to various Federal grants issued to border sheriff departments. With these grants, border sheriff depts. can purchase the necessary equipment and manpower to 'assist' the U.S. Border Patrol in apprehending illegals.


Chuck

[mnealtx 0]

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No personal disrespect, Chuck, but I call bullshit to your bullshit. If you're willing to have a country where a citizen must always carry his "papers" with him while he's walking down a public street, or sit in the slammer for failing to do so, then - as I said - you're willing to accept a different United States of America than I am.

INS vs. Delgado - an officer *can* ask for identification.

Hiibel vs. 6th Judicial District Court - requiring suspects to identify themselves during an investigation is not a violation of 4th or 5th Amendment rights.

Any more fear-mongering you care to do, or should we let you get back to planning your emigration to another country?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[turtlespeed 220]

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No personal disrespect, Chuck, but I call bullshit to your bullshit. If you're willing to have a country where a citizen must always carry his "papers" with him while he's walking down a public street, or sit in the slammer for failing to do so, then - as I said - you're willing to accept a different United States of America than I am.

INS vs. Delgado - an officer *can* ask for identification.

Hiibel vs. 6th Judicial District Court - requiring suspects to identify themselves during an investigation is not a violation of 4th or 5th Amendment rights.

Any more fear-mongering you care to do, or should we let you get back to planning your emigration to another country?

But - but - but He doesn't have any ID - he'll just get deported.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[redlegphi 0]

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I am just spouting off, but I'd like to see that sheriff Arpaio set up a big camp just for the illegal immigrants if they are caught. Make them work chain gangs cleaning up highways, etc. Make them all wear pink striped uniforms.

He's done a great job with his jail methods, controversial as it is, IMO.

Correct me if I"m wrong, but isn't part of the argument against illegal immigrants that they take jobs that Americans could do? So, to punish these illegal immigrants, you want to incarcerate them and...force them to do jobs that Americans could do. Bravo.

[Amazon 7]

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Sorry, but you don't need much probably cause to stop someone on the street. At that point, the law kicks in. Do you really think it would be a stretch for a cop to come up with probable cause to stop someone if he wanted to? Ever watch "COPS"? Most of the stops start with, "That guy just failed to use his turn signal, I'm going to pull him over and check him out."

Why is it that those who pay all that lip service to smaller government and less government intrusion... always seem to support MORE of it and are good with giving the donut sucking abusers of power even more power to abuse