Why does Mexico encourage immigration into the US?

[billvon 3,078]

>If they didn't ship 'em to the north, the Mexican goverment would be overthrown.

And if we don't pull them into our country, our economy would implode.

(Both those statements are about equally accurate.)

[turtlespeed 226]

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>If they didn't ship 'em to the north, the Mexican goverment would be overthrown.

And if we don't pull them into our country, our economy would implode.

(Both those statements are about equally accurate.)

Unemployment is growing and will grow to a point where our snotty asses will do the work for the pay offered, if we want to eat.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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The real question is not why the Mexican government encourages immigration, but why the Mexican government encourages illegal immigration given that NAFTA opens avenues for legal immigration for Mexican citizens that did not previously exist and still don't exist for most countries.

The problem there is that TN visas are available only to skilled/educated people in a narrow range of industries, and those are the people the Mexican government would (logically) most want to have stay in Mexico to develop Mexican industries. It is to their advantage to encourage emigration of poor and less skilled workers, for all the reasons given in other posts (sending money to Mexico, political influence, etc).

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[SivaGanesha 2]

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The problem there is that TN visas are available only to skilled/educated people in a narrow range of industries, and those are the people the Mexican government would (logically) most want to have stay in Mexico to develop Mexican industries. It is to their advantage to encourage emigration of poor and less skilled workers, for all the reasons given in other posts (sending money to Mexico, political influence, etc).

If the Mexican government didn't want the more skilled folks spending some time in the USA legally, why did they negotiate a deal (NAFTA) permitting their more skilled workers to do exactly that?

Why negotiate a privilege you aren't going to use and then whine when you don't have other privileges you didn't negotiate?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

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If the Mexican government didn't want the more skilled folks spending some time in the USA legally, why did they negotiate a deal (NAFTA) permitting their more skilled workers to do exactly that?

Why negotiate a privilege you aren't going to use and then whine when you don't have other privileges you didn't negotiate?

Basically we should be insisting that Mexico follow the immigration paths that India or China did. Many from China/India come here legally; some stay and get their green cards/citizenship and others return home and use their USA contacts to start businesses in their home countries. Nobody (or very few people) called us 'racist' when we insisted that Indian/Chinese citizens play by the rules and we shouldn't listen to that argument from Mexico.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[GeorgiaDon 379]

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If the Mexican government didn't want the more skilled folks spending some time in the USA legally, why did they negotiate a deal (NAFTA) permitting their more skilled workers to do exactly that?

Because they want the ability to draw on skilled American and Canadian workers, and it is unlikely that Canada and the US would have agreed to a one-way street. Also the TN system already existed in the US/Canada treaty that preceded the current agreement, and it would (I imagine) have been difficult to adapt the expanded NAFTA to allow TN exchanges between the US and Canada but exclude Mexico.

To return to your post that I was responding to before, the great majority of Mexicans who are here illegally are not eligible for TN visas as they are not appropriately skilled. Manual labor/carpentry/chicken processing are not professions that are TN eligible, so it's not accurate to say the Mexican government is encouraging illegal immigration when legal alternatives (such as the TN) are readily available.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[AndyBoyd 0]

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I completely understand that America is a bit short on cash right now,

Are you going for the understatement of the year award?

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This ought to be a long-term priority of the USA's.

Why is it our responsibility?

I didn't say it was our responsibility. What I said was, it might be in our long term interest to help Mexico with its economy. If you want less Mexicans crossing the border illegally, you've got to eliminate their motivation to do so. Why do you think we hardly ever hear about illegal immigrants from Canada?

[turtlespeed 226]

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I completely understand that America is a bit short on cash right now,

Are you going for the understatement of the year award?

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This ought to be a long-term priority of the USA's.

Why is it our responsibility?

I didn't say it was our responsibility. What I said was, it might be in our long term interest to help Mexico with its economy. If you want less Mexicans crossing the border illegally, you've got to eliminate their motivation to do so. Why do you think we hardly ever hear about illegal immigrants from Canada?

I think High Voltage electric fences would be better - of course - there would need to be a lot of warning signs put up - but I think it would work!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SivaGanesha 2]

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To return to your post that I was responding to before, the great majority of Mexicans who are here illegally are not eligible for TN visas as they are not appropriately skilled. Manual labor/carpentry/chicken processing are not professions that are TN eligible, so it's not accurate to say the Mexican government is encouraging illegal immigration when legal alternatives (such as the TN) are readily available.

Mexico could be encouraging its people to get an education so they qualify for the TN. While I don't claim that everyone in Mexico could go this route, I do claim that India--with a lower per capita income--has established a strong reputation for sending highly skilled immigrants to the USA and I really think the question needs to be asked why we aren't seeing at least some of that with Mexico.

There needs to be more focus with Mexico on highly skilled people who might be able to return to Mexico and start strong businesses in their own country, thereby eventually ending the need for illegal immigration.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[masterrig 1]

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I completely understand that America is a bit short on cash right now,

Are you going for the understatement of the year award?

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This ought to be a long-term priority of the USA's.

Why is it our responsibility?

I didn't say it was our responsibility. What I said was, it might be in our long term interest to help Mexico with its economy. If you want less Mexicans crossing the border illegally, you've got to eliminate their motivation to do so. Why do you think we hardly ever hear about illegal immigrants from Canada?

I think High Voltage electric fences would be better - of course - there would need to be a lot of warning signs put up - but I think it would work!

The U.S. could use wind energy to supply electricity to the fence. That would keep the greenies happy too!


Chuck

[champu 1]

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It is to their advantage to encourage emigration of poor and less skilled workers...

Gold star for being the first person in the thread to use the term emigration.

[billvon 3,078]

>Unemployment is growing and will grow to a point where our snotty asses
>will do the work for the pay offered, if we want to eat.

Unemployment will follow the same cyclic curve it always does. (See below for historical numbers.) History tends to repeat.

[Southern_Man 0]

Yes, there was actually a slight "outflow" last year of illegal immigrants as the economy was so bad.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[ridestrong 1]

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Maybe it's because they encourage immigration South of their border.

We all know, that Mexico doesn't profile individuals coming from other countries illegally. They unlike the US make every effort in providing them with jobs, healthcare, housing...they don't even ask to see your papers.

You ARE being 100% sarcastic right???

Never mind, guess it's pretty obvious you are.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Bolas 5]

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Let me just toss this out there as an idea to chew on. Or chew up, as people may well disagree strongly with this suggestion. It seems clear that the basic reason behind the illegal immingration problem is that Mexico's economy is in such a shambles that people there cannot find sufficient work to support themselves and their families. They come here (illegally in many cases) because they want to work. Would the best way to fix our immigation problem be to spend some $$ to help jumpstart Mexico's economy, and remove the primary incentive for illegal immigration? In other words, would "making Mexico our next welfare project" ultimately help to secure our borders? I completely understand that America is a bit short on cash right now, but my view is that this is the only real long-term solution to the immigration problem. Heightened border enforcement, walls, laws like Arizona's are short-term fixes at best in my opinion. If we really want the illegal immigration problem to get better, we've got to help Mexio out of the mess it is in. This ought to be a long-term priority of the USA's.

Because handing out money to people, other governments, and companies has been so successful in making them more self sufficient.

Handouts bad, secured loans/investing good.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[redlegphi 0]

Immigration, particularly the illegal kind, acts as a safety valve for Mexican society. Those most likely to leave are the poor and those disenchanted with how thing are going in Mexico. That leaves the people who are happy with how things are going behind to vote for the President.
Since we can't really do anything directly about Mexico encouraging (or, at the very least, looking the other way for) illegal immigration, I'd say the more important question is "Why has the US, through Republican and Democratic administrations, done nothing to attempt to stop the flow of illegal immigrants?" As I've said in another thread, I'd venture the answer is that the cheap labor is too hard for a lot of American corporations to give up.

[AndyBoyd 0]

I agree. I did not assert that we should simply give money to Mexico with no strings attached. That would indeed be . I do think that it should be a long-term priority of the USA's to invest/loan money in the Mexican economy. Given our cash crunch, we don't have to invest heavily right now. I'm just saying that given the interest everyone has (including me) in securing our borders, a long-term investment strategy designed to eventually improve Mexico's economy would gradually decrease the incentive many Mexicans have to cross the border illegally.

It looks like the fog is lifting. Off to the DZ. You will have to continue the conversation without me this weekend.
After re-reading my first post in this thread, I will have to concede that speaking in terms of giving "welfare" to Mexico was a poor choice of words. Bolas' point was a fair one.

[billvon 3,078]

>I'd say the more important question is "Why has the US, through
>Republican and Democratic administrations, done nothing to attempt to
>stop the flow of illegal immigrants?"

They have. There are immigration laws that keep most would-be border crossers out. We've spent hundreds of millions on fences. We spend about four billion dollars a year to fund the Border Patrol.

Now, you can argue we are not doing enough, but you can't rationally argue that no one has done anything.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Massive amounts of money are being sent to Mexico from the United States, in fact it is Mexico's number one foreign income, more than tourists or anything else. They obviously are pretty happy about this, and have aided people who wish to come here illegally.

Ways to solve the immigration problem:

1. Fix the border. First, build more double walled fencing, in areas where it is really needed. This type of fencing IS effective, and while you cannot stop tunnels, it will go a long long ways. Look up the town of Nogales, Mexico and you will see that it is a huge point of entry for illegals, and the fence ends about 1/4 mile out of town. YOU CAN JUST WALK AROUND IT. Border agents do use a wide range of techniques, but it is simply costing a fortune and doesn't do enough.
2. Fix United States policies regarding hiring employees, use of public services, and setting up bank accounts.
The Mexican Government issues ID cards to it's citizens that basically say that the card holder is a Mexican who is living outside of Mexico. Banks in the United States are accepting this card as the only ID needed to set up bank accounts, and this needs to stop.
Drivers Licenses need to be standardized throughout the US, and contain info regarding the holder's legal status in the country. Scanning drivers licenses should be 100% mandatory for hiring, so that the employer knows for a fact that he is employing a legal immigrant/citizen.
3. Actually ENFORCE the fucking laws in place regarding intentionally hiring illegal immigrants. This is such a joke that not a single employer is even slightly scared.

Only when illegals have lost their incentives to come here, and the challenge of getting across the border is significantly increased, will the flow stop. At that point, border patrol agents can actually spend their time catching who they really want to catch, drug runners and other criminals.

No Amnesty. I also tip my hat to those Mexicans who have come here legally, and respect our laws.

[masterrig 1]

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Massive amounts of money are being sent to Mexico from the United States, in fact it is Mexico's number one foreign income, more than tourists or anything else. They obviously are pretty happy about this, and have aided people who wish to come here illegally.

Ways to solve the immigration problem:

1. Fix the border. First, build more double walled fencing, in areas where it is really needed. This type of fencing IS effective, and while you cannot stop tunnels, it will go a long long ways. Look up the town of Nogales, Mexico and you will see that it is a huge point of entry for illegals, and the fence ends about 1/4 mile out of town. YOU CAN JUST WALK AROUND IT. Border agents do use a wide range of techniques, but it is simply costing a fortune and doesn't do enough.
2. Fix United States policies regarding hiring employees, use of public services, and setting up bank accounts.
The Mexican Government issues ID cards to it's citizens that basically say that the card holder is a Mexican who is living outside of Mexico. Banks in the United States are accepting this card as the only ID needed to set up bank accounts, and this needs to stop.
Drivers Licenses need to be standardized throughout the US, and contain info regarding the holder's legal status in the country. Scanning drivers licenses should be 100% mandatory for hiring, so that the employer knows for a fact that he is employing a legal immigrant/citizen.
3. Actually ENFORCE the fucking laws in place regarding intentionally hiring illegal immigrants. This is such a joke that not a single employer is even slightly scared.

Only when illegals have lost their incentives to come here, and the challenge of getting across the border is significantly increased, will the flow stop. At that point, border patrol agents can actually spend their time catching who they really want to catch, drug runners and other criminals.

No Amnesty. I also tip my hat to those Mexicans who have come here legally, and respect our laws.

Good points!
Enforce stiff penalties to employers of illegals.
A good 'worker program' where those who need laborers can hire those they need and when the job is done... they go back home. Something similar to the old Brazero system. Employers had to afford green card carriers adequate housing.

I totally agree with enforcing the laws we have... we don't need new ones. We just need to get 'tough' and quit being so weak. Other countries don't seem to have a problem with being tough.


Chuck

[wayneflorida 0]

In the year 2023 the Mexicans will stop coming to the US, because the US won't be a better place than Mexico.

In the year 2035 the Nigerians will stop coming to the US, because the US won't be a better place than Nigeria.

In the year 2055 the Somalians will stop coming to the US, because the US won't be a better place than Somalia.

[kallend 2,108]

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It is to their advantage to encourage emigration of poor and less skilled workers...

Gold star for being the first person in the thread to use the term emigration.

You expected anything else from a professor?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,108]

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Massive amounts of money are being sent to Mexico from the United States, in fact it is Mexico's number one foreign income, more than tourists or anything else. They obviously are pretty happy about this, and have aided people who wish to come here illegally.

Ways to solve the immigration problem:

1. Fix the border. First, build more double walled fencing, in areas where it is really needed. This type of fencing IS effective, and while you cannot stop tunnels, it will go a long long ways. Look up the town of Nogales, Mexico and you will see that it is a huge point of entry for illegals, and the fence ends about 1/4 mile out of town. YOU CAN JUST WALK AROUND IT. Border agents do use a wide range of techniques, but it is simply costing a fortune and doesn't do enough.
2. Fix United States policies regarding hiring employees, use of public services, and setting up bank accounts.
The Mexican Government issues ID cards to it's citizens that basically say that the card holder is a Mexican who is living outside of Mexico. Banks in the United States are accepting this card as the only ID needed to set up bank accounts, and this needs to stop.
Drivers Licenses need to be standardized throughout the US, and contain info regarding the holder's legal status in the country. Scanning drivers licenses should be 100% mandatory for hiring, so that the employer knows for a fact that he is employing a legal immigrant/citizen.
3. Actually ENFORCE the fucking laws in place regarding intentionally hiring illegal immigrants. This is such a joke that not a single employer is even slightly scared.

Only when illegals have lost their incentives to come here, and the challenge of getting across the border is significantly increased, will the flow stop. At that point, border patrol agents can actually spend their time catching who they really want to catch, drug runners and other criminals.

No Amnesty. I also tip my hat to those Mexicans who have come here legally, and respect our laws.

OK, compare the relative costs of your items (1), (2) and (3).

Of course, it's always OK for the govt. to spend taxpayer money on programs that we like, while criticizing govt. spending on programs that benefit others.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

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The concept of Aztlán as the place of origin of the pre-Columbian Mexican civilization has become a symbol for various Mexican nationalist and indigenous movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztl%C3%A1n

We are all engines of karma

[LongWayToFall 0]

Ok, which is why I noted that currently border security is costing a fortune, when some of that money should go towards double layer fencing.
Do you know how much taxpayer money is being spent on illegals? A huge sum.

Something that confuses the fuck outta me is why the hell do left wingers not care about illegal immigration, while right wingers do? The ones that benefit are the companies employing them, while entry level low skilled workers suffer. Totally lopsided.