jakee 1,489 #26 June 4, 2010 QuoteDoes anyone know the relative crime rates in the U.K & U.S and what proportion of those include guns? No. Outside of a few major, concrete stats like murder rate the differences in classification and recording of crimes makes that a pretty much impossible question to answer with any degree of accuracy.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #27 June 4, 2010 Quotecornishchris is right - if we had a gun culture like the us then one can reasonably assume that gun crime (from a low base) will grow 1000% See message #17. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #28 June 4, 2010 QuoteQuotecornishchris is right - if we had a gun culture like the us then one can reasonably assume that gun crime (from a low base) will grow 1000% See message #17. see #25stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #29 June 4, 2010 Quote***Packing heat may backfire. People who carry guns are far likelier to get shot – and killed – than those who are unarmed, a study of shooting victims in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, has found. It would be impractical – not to say unethical – to randomly assign volunteers to carry a gun or not and see what happens. So Charles Branas's team at the University of Pennsylvania analysed 677 shootings over two-and-a-half years to discover whether victims were carrying at the time, and compared them to other Philly residents of similar age, sex and ethnicity. The team also accounted for other potentially confounding differences, such as the socioeconomic status of their neighbourhood. So...are you unable to see the obvious flaw in this study, and why their explanation for it is inadequate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #30 June 4, 2010 From your own article Quote"We don't have an answer as to whether guns are protective or perilous," Branas says. "This study is a beginning." So, He can't claim a correlation, but you can? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 June 4, 2010 Quote Quote and cornishchris is right - if we had a gun culture like the us then one can reasonably assume that gun crime (from a low base) will grow 1000% Since we are using made up data.... I think that if gun laws were loosened, violent crime would drop by 1,000,000%. one important rule of statistical bullshitting is that you have to make up valid numbers. You can't have anything drop by more than 100%. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #32 June 4, 2010 Quote one important rule of statistical bullshitting is that you have to make up valid numbers That's just funny right there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #33 June 4, 2010 QuoteQuoteDoes anyone know the relative crime rates in the U.K & U.S and what proportion of those include guns? No. Outside of a few major, concrete stats like murder rate the differences in classification and recording of crimes makes that a pretty much impossible question to answer with any degree of accuracy. Murder rates from www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita USA - 4.3 per 100,000 UK - 1.4 per 100,000 The USA has no reason to preach.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #34 June 4, 2010 QuoteQuotehe had licenses for the guns. Yep. So what's England going to do next, with their typical knee-jerk legislative response to such tragedies? Ban .22 rifles and shotguns? Not this time, I think that people have realised that thegun ban has done nothing to prevent firearms crime. There are currently 1.3 Million firearms legally held in the UK and I doubt that anyone will be trying to remove them.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #35 June 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteDoes anyone know the relative crime rates in the U.K & U.S and what proportion of those include guns? No. Outside of a few major, concrete stats like murder rate the differences in classification and recording of crimes makes that a pretty much impossible question to answer with any degree of accuracy. Murder rates from www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita USA - 4.3 per 100,000 UK - 1.4 per 100,000 The USA has no reason to preach. How were the murders commited? What weapon, if any was used?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #36 June 5, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Does anyone know the relative crime rates in the U.K & U.S and what proportion of those include guns? No. Outside of a few major, concrete stats like murder rate the differences in classification and recording of crimes makes that a pretty much impossible question to answer with any degree of accuracy. Murder rates from www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita USA - 4.3 per 100,000 UK - 1.4 per 100,000 The USA has no reason to preach. How were the murders commited? What weapon, if any was used? tell us when you've got the answers (meanwhile it's a no-brainer that a lot more would die from guns if the uk had the same gun culture as the us)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #37 June 5, 2010 Quote (meanwhile it's a no-brainer that a lot more would die from guns if the uk had the same gun culture as the us) "no-brainer" your word. your argument.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #38 June 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDoes anyone know the relative crime rates in the U.K & U.S and what proportion of those include guns? No. Outside of a few major, concrete stats like murder rate the differences in classification and recording of crimes makes that a pretty much impossible question to answer with any degree of accuracy. Murder rates from www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita USA - 4.3 per 100,000 UK - 1.4 per 100,000 The USA has no reason to preach. How were the murders commited? What weapon, if any was used? If you are trying to make a point, it is your job to do your own research FIRST. 66% of US homicides are committed with guns (source: FBI), leaving 34% using other methods. 34% of 4.3 is 1.46 So, if gun homicides are excluded, the US murder rate is essentially the same as the UK murder rate. Or to put it another way, the difference between the US and UK murder rates is attributable to GUNS.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #39 June 5, 2010 QuoteOr to put it another way, the difference between the US and UK murder rates is attributable to GUNS. Please provide the proof to back your claim. What you have is not proof. That would be like me claiming that guns keep the overall crime rate lower than England's based off this data: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita UK #6, US #8. And that without guns, the UK has the highest kidnapping rate of ANY Country. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_kid-crime-kidnappings As further "proof".. the US is not even ON that list. And guns keep you from being robbed.... I mean the data say's that right? http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita UK #7, US #17. And guns prevent Robberies... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita UK #8, US #11 So please.... Provide a standard of data that you would expect from one of your students to proof your hypothesis. Prove guns alone are the reason for higher murder rates in the US... Or conceded my "points". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #40 June 5, 2010 Try reading MORE CAREFULLY. The US murder rate is 4.3 per 100k The UK murder rate is 1.4 per 100k (source previously cited) 66% of US homicides are committed with guns (source: FBI), leaving 34% using other methods. 34% of 4.3 is 1.46 So, if gun homicides are excluded, the US murder rate is essentially the same as the UK murder rate. Or to put it another way, the difference between the US and UK murder rates is attributable to murders with GUNS.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #41 June 5, 2010 Of the 1.4 per 100,000 - 6.3% (2008/09) of the murders were from using guns. So, about 0.09 murders using guns per 100,000. Source: Home Office Statistical Bulletin - Homicides, Firearm offences and intimate violence 2008/09 - Page 49. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #42 June 6, 2010 Quote So, if gun homicides are excluded, the US murder rate is essentially the same as the UK murder rate. Or to put it another way, the difference between the US and UK murder rates is attributable to murders with GUNS. This is the sort of shoddy science we don't need being taught to our students. Is it really your belief that none of these 10000+ murders would have occurred without the use of a gun? A rare yes or no answer would be nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #43 June 6, 2010 Quote Of the 1.4 per 100,000 - 6.3% (2008/09) of the murders were from using guns. So, about 0.09 murders using guns per 100,000. Source: Home Office Statistical Bulletin - Homicides, Firearm offences and intimate violence 2008/09 - Page 49. So if I read what you are posting - the 1.4 is the same as the UK - exept that they have a Gun ban . . . that can't be right - the guns are banned, right? How can that be? Surely your data is false!I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #44 June 6, 2010 guns aren't banned here - you just need a license. the guy this thread is about had licenses for both his guns.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #45 June 6, 2010 first of all I was being Facetious . . . I know there are liscences one can acquire. All though they are hard to get. go back to the stats . . . and answer to those.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #46 June 6, 2010 you think gun licenses should be easy to get? (and we should just hand out driving and pilots licenses as well to all and sundry)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #47 June 6, 2010 QuoteSo if I read what you are posting - the 1.4 is the same as the UK - exept that they have a Gun ban . . . that can't be right - the guns are banned, right? That's ~1.4 per 100k murders in each country not involving guns...Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #48 June 6, 2010 Quote Quote Of the 1.4 per 100,000 - 6.3% (2008/09) of the murders were from using guns. So, about 0.09 murders using guns per 100,000. Source: Home Office Statistical Bulletin - Homicides, Firearm offences and intimate violence 2008/09 - Page 49. So if I read what you are posting - the 1.4 is the same as the UK - exept that they have a Gun ban . . . that can't be right - the guns are banned, right? How can that be? Surely your data is false! Why don't you READ what is posted before hitting "reply to".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #49 June 6, 2010 QuoteQuote So, if gun homicides are excluded, the US murder rate is essentially the same as the UK murder rate. Or to put it another way, the difference between the US and UK murder rates is attributable to murders with GUNS. This is the sort of shoddy science we don't need being taught to our students. Is it really your belief that none of these 10000+ murders would have occurred without the use of a gun? A rare yes or no answer would be nice. That isn't what I wrote. Have you been taking lessons from turtle? PS , since you appear to have forgotten: Sum = A+B DIFFERENCE = A-B Product = A*B Quotient = A/B... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #50 June 6, 2010 It's exactly what you wrote. What kills this fantasy is the substitution that would take place in the absence of one tool. Guns don't kill people, people do. And they do it by whatever methods available. Take away the illegal drug trade (legalization) and you'll realize a much bigger reduction in murders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
