Deportation

[billvon 3,009]

>>Should you be deported?

>Yes.

What crime have you committed?

[turtlespeed 221]

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>>Should you be deported?

>Yes.

What crime have you committed?

I expanded my answer above - but you don't have to commit a crime to be deported. Of no fault of his/her own, they would still be in violation of the law.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 23]

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>Not necessarily.

Agreed. Now, if your parents have you in Mexico, then transport you into the US when you are a few days old, and do not tell you for 20 years - are you responsible for the "crime" you committed?

Yes

Again
a parents actions can have a huge effect on your life.

As stated, ignorance is no excuse. And now that you know you must take the steps to fix it. At this point they become responcible for self

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Should you be deported?

No because there is a law on the books allowing those who have served honorably in the military to obtain US citizenship. Prior immigration status is not a consideration.

Now it is true that those who are illegal are not supposed to get into the military in the first place. But if they manage to find their way in (eg maybe the recruiter was short on quotas and didn't look too closely at immigration status) they can use their service to qualify for citizenship. At that point, their past illegal status is, in effect, forgiven.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[billvon 3,009]

> But if they manage to find their way in (eg maybe the recruiter was
>short on quotas and didn't look too closely at immigration status) they
>can use their service to qualify for citizenship.

Agreed - which is one (of many) cases where someone who entered the country illegally should be able to stay. Hence the importance of applying good judgment to such decisions as opposed to black and white rules.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Tell the 19 year old kid that has been in the USA since they were three, and got deported back to their counrty of birth over a legal technicality how much your feelings are hurt. I am sure they will be sympathetic.

I feel that some illegal immigrants are more sympathetic figures than others and I agree that permanently exiling a 19 year old from the only country they've known seems a little harsh.

OTOH there is nothing unusual about putting a 19 year old in a situation where they don't know anyone and expecting them to sink or swim. For example--going away to college, joining the military, moving to start a new job.

The ones I have the most compassion for--and I think this is a fairly rare situation but it does occasionally happen--are the ones who do not speak the language of the 'home' country to which they are deported. That's a very rough situation and I have full compassion for such people. I also think it is thankfully quite rare because usually in immigrant homes Spanish, or whatever the original language is, is still spoken.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[rhaig 0]

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So illegal is illegal regardless of whether they have done a heroic deed for the benefit of US citizens?

there are no shades of grey here. They came here illegally, intentionally, and remained here. There is a process for legally becoming a citizen. Should they wish to remain here legally they should enter into that process, then they will not be illegal anymore, and will be allowed to stay.

Shipping them all home (wherever home may be) is not a viable option, not only because of the cost, but because of the lost benefit to our society that they provide. But they are here illegally as long as they stay outside of that process and when caught should be shipped home.

--
Rob

[billvon 3,009]

>there are no shades of grey here.

We just listed one above. The world is not black and white; there are exceptions to nearly everything.

[rhaig 0]

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How many of you in Texas, or who know people in Texas make sure there are not more than six sex toys in the house?

we only have 5 unless you count the lube. Then it's 6

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

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I agree with you, doing a good Samaritan act doesn't excuse illegalities.

We ALL seem to be agreed on that.

So the guy that swiped your wallet goes to jail?

I hope so. And then is deported if he's an illegal alien.

Unfortunately state police make the call to ICE upon their release, and when ICE fails to show up, the illegal immigrant goes free because the state police can't enforce federal immigration law.

--
Rob

[funjumper101 15]

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>Not necessarily.

Agreed. Now, if your parents have you in Mexico, then transport you into the US when you are a few days old, and do not tell you for 20 years - are you responsible for the "crime" you committed?

Yes

Again
a parents actions can have a huge effect on your life.

As stated, ignorance is no excuse. And now that you know you must take the steps to fix it. At this point they become responcible for self

Compassionless conservatism at its finest...

That kind of thinking is totally disgusting to those of us who actually understand what this country "used" to stand for.

In reference to the repeated calls by some for ALL illegals to be deported, no matter what the circumstances are, so much for justice and reasonable application of the law. These concepts are beyong comprehension of the conservatards. Stunted moral development is really nasty when it rears its ugly head.

[rhaig 0]

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>there are no shades of grey here.

We just listed one above. The world is not black and white; there are exceptions to nearly everything.

if you're referring to the illegal immigrant serving in the military as a way to gain citizenship, then that is a legal process to become a citizen.

Do they not have to follow an established legal process to become a citizen after their military service?

--
Rob

[billvon 3,009]

>if you're referring to the illegal immigrant serving in the military as a way
>to gain citizenship, then that is a legal process to become a citizen.

Correct. And in my example, he would have to be here for a long time illegally before that became an option. A gray area, eh?

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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So being a good Samaritan is no defense against breaking a different law?

To answer YOUR question

You are responsible for you own actions.
Crime = time
Actions = consequence
Being a Good Samaritan does not erase ones transgressions

Do you think Elian Gonzales should have been deported?

[rhaig 0]

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>if you're referring to the illegal immigrant serving in the military as a way
>to gain citizenship, then that is a legal process to become a citizen.

Correct. And in my example, he would have to be here for a long time illegally before that became an option. A gray area, eh?

no, they were illegal up until the point that they entered into the process to become a citizen.

--
Rob

[billvon 3,009]

>no, they were illegal up until the point that they entered into the process
>to become a citizen.

OK, so there is a way for an illegal alien who is already here to get "legal amnesty." That's fine, and is another way of saying the same thing.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Do you think Elian Gonzales should have been deported?

Deportation was never an issue with Elian. Cubans who reach dry land--which Elian did but sadly his mother did not--are entitled to stay in the USA. All agreed that the decision as to whether Elian would stay was not the government's to make. The disagreement was in who was empowered to make that decision: the father, the Miami relatives, or Elian himself. Had all branches of the family been in agreement the courts/government would never have been involved at all.

Elian would never have been deported. The only way for him to return to Cuba was in the custody of responsible family members--not the government--and that is what ultimately happened.

The real question here is whether the policy of returning to Cuba those who are picked up at sea is a humane or fair policy. But Elian didn't fall into that group.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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if you're referring to the illegal immigrant serving in the military as a way to gain citizenship, then that is a legal process to become a citizen.

it's ok for the government to hire illegals?

[Anvilbrother 0]

OMG I found something me and Amazon 100% agree on!! If John Rich agrees with us hell will freeze over today for sure

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Ion01 2]

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It's not a binary decision. It's simpler for people to see it that way, but it's not reality. Some cases will be clear cut, others would need to be judged depending on the situation.

Okay, so the honest people who take the time and effort to come across legally are basically punished while those who dishonestly cross the borders can stay if they have a sad enough sob story? Whats the point it doing it legally then?

[futuredivot 0]

No, not the same thing-getting away with something isn't the same as it being legal or right.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Do you think Elian Gonzales should have been deported?

Deportation was never an issue with Elian. Cubans who reach dry land--which Elian did but sadly his mother did not--are entitled to stay in the USA. All agreed that the decision as to whether Elian would stay was not the government's to make. The disagreement was in who was empowered to make that decision: the father, the Miami relatives, or Elian himself. Had all branches of the family been in agreement the courts/government would never have been involved at all.

Elian would never have been deported. The only way for him to return to Cuba was in the custody of responsible family members--not the government--and that is what ultimately happened.

The real question here is whether the policy of returning to Cuba those who are picked up at sea is a humane or fair policy. But Elian didn't fall into that group.

OK ... thanks. In that case we were all very concerned about what was in the child's best interest, rather than just making a decision based on the technicalities of the law. That makes sense.

[rhaig 0]

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if you're referring to the illegal immigrant serving in the military as a way to gain citizenship, then that is a legal process to become a citizen.

it's ok for the government to hire illegals?

there was a reference to this earlier. a recruiter that slips up, doesn't check something. Do I think it happens a lot? no. do I think it should ever happen? no. is it possible? sure.

--
Rob

[SivaGanesha 2]

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it's ok for the government to hire illegals?

Military recruits are supposed to be legal citizens or green card holders.

However I'm not sure whether the military is obliged to follow civilian rules on this or the rules on this are solely a matter of military policy (and hence subject to relaxation/change at their discretion).

Perhaps someone who is a veteran can tell us whether they had to fill in Form I-9 when they joined the military. I just get the sense that joining the military, although it is like being 'hired' in some ways (eg you get a paycheck), also is a different process in many ways than the usual civilian hiring process.

Once someone is in the military, I think their commitment and eventual discharge from the military is solely an internal military process. I don't think ICE has the authority to conduct raids of military facilities to find out who has/has not been hired illegally.

Anyone in/formerly in the military have anything to add?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

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OK ... thanks. In that case we were all very concerned about what was in the child's best interest, rather than just making a decision based on the technicalities of the law. That makes sense.

We are getting a bit away from the topic but one thing that made the Elian case difficult is that it was very hard to know what was really in Elian's best interest. On the one hand he probably would have had far more opportunities in life staying in the USA but on the other hand after the death of his mother he had far more close surviving family in Cuba (eg the father, grandparents).

It was a hard call to make. Since his mother perished in the attempt to get him to the USA, it seems reasonable to think about what his mother would have wanted, but no one seemed too sure exactly what his mother would have wanted in such circumstances.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014