Save the environment, buy a Hummer avoid a Prius

[mnealtx 0]

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since they are both purchased to provide the owner with a self satisfied smugness of a purely cosmetic nature - I'd rather just let people decide which type of poser they want to be and make their purchase based on that

*ding ding ding*

We have a winner, folks!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Meanwhile, in the arctic..

Where satellite photos show thicker ice than in the last 30 years...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[brenthutch 444]

When an engine gets old one can replace rings valves ect. at a cost much less than an engine replacement. When a batter pack goes bad the whole thing needs to be replaces. BTW I just linked up the article a more valid comparison would be the cost of a civic or corolla vs a prius.

In that head to head it would not even be close.

[billvon 3,073]

>When an engine gets old one can replace rings valves ect. at a cost much
>less than an engine replacement. When a batter pack goes bad the
>whole thing needs to be replaces.

Uh, no, you can just replace the bad cells if you want. It's a lot of work but it costs very little; you can do it for about $125 per cell stick pair. If you want someone else to rebuild the pack it costs about $1000 because it's labor-intensive. There's a lot of cycling/balancing to be done.

>In that head to head it would not even be close.

Let's see:

From looking on the web, an 8 cylinder engine rebuild kit* costs between $200 and $550. How much would it cost to have all that work done by a mechanic?

(including rings, gaskets, cam bearings, rod bearings, main bearings, oil pump, freeze plugs, lifters, timing chain/tensioner and wrist pin bushings)

[brenthutch 444]

Wow, they have eight cylinder civics and corollas!?!?!?
Or did you just not read my post before you replied?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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>. . . and what are the recycling fees associated with the batteries vs the engine?

Toyota and Honda recycle the battery for free. I don't know how much it costs to recycle an engine; I've seen a lot just tossed in a junkyard or landfill.

Engines are steel. Steel is the number one recycled metal, and one of the top materials (no link, info from History Channel's "Modern Marvels") Junkyards usually strip off usable parts and sell the rest of the steel as scrap .

Last trip to the junkyard, they were paying $100/ton for basic scrap steel, $200 for "prepared" steel (clean and with nothing mixed in).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[penniless 0]

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>. . . and what are the recycling fees associated with the batteries vs the engine?

Toyota and Honda recycle the battery for free. I don't know how much it costs to recycle an engine; I've seen a lot just tossed in a junkyard or landfill.

Engines are steel. Steel is the number one recycled metal, and one of the top materials

That is only because steel is the #1 used metal.

In terms of % recycled, gold and platinum come out far higher.

[billvon 3,073]

>Wow, they have eight cylinder civics and corollas!?!?!?

From the original post:

"The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles."

But in any case, four cylinder rebuild kits aren't much cheaper; you still need a full set of gaskets, a new timing chain and tensioner etc.

[turtlespeed 226]

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>Wow, they have eight cylinder civics and corollas!?!?!?

From the original post:

"The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles."

But in any case, four cylinder rebuild kits aren't much cheaper; you still need a full set of gaskets, a new timing chain and tensioner etc.

What is the life expectancy of the battery pacs?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,073]

>What is the life expectancy of the battery pacs?

They're new enough that they don't have good data over decades yet. But on average 150,000 to 200,000 miles from the few that have gotten that old so far. Some have made it to 300,000 miles, mainly taxis since they spend so much time on the road.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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>. . . and what are the recycling fees associated with the batteries vs the engine?

Toyota and Honda recycle the battery for free. I don't know how much it costs to recycle an engine; I've seen a lot just tossed in a junkyard or landfill.

Engines are steel. Steel is the number one recycled metal, and one of the top materials

That is only because steel is the #1 used metal.

In terms of % recycled, gold and platinum come out far higher.

Very true. My point was that there isn't any cost to recycle an engine. Even a junk engine has value as scrap steel, and finding a buyer for the scrap is very easy.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[turtlespeed 226]

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>. . . and what are the recycling fees associated with the batteries vs the engine?

Toyota and Honda recycle the battery for free. I don't know how much it costs to recycle an engine; I've seen a lot just tossed in a junkyard or landfill.

Engines are steel. Steel is the number one recycled metal, and one of the top materials

That is only because steel is the #1 used metal.

In terms of % recycled, gold and platinum come out far higher.

Very true. My point was that there isn't any cost to recycle an engine. Even a junk engine has value as scrap steel, and finding a buyer for the scrap is very easy.

I was asking cost in the form of energy.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[pontiacgtp00 0]

Hummer's and Prius' are equally gay, just stay away from either of them.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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I was asking cost in the form of energy.

Recycling steel (or most metals AFAIK) saves a considerable amount of energy over mining and proceessing ore.

That's why scrap steel is worth more than iron ore.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[penniless 0]

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I was asking cost in the form of energy.

Recycling steel (or most metals AFAIK) saves a considerable amount of energy over mining and proceessing ore.

That's why scrap steel is worth more than iron ore.

You save even more energy recycling aluminum.

I suspect recycling the neodymium in hybrid motors is very cost effective too.

[brenthutch 444]

Old battery trade in for a prius would go like this:

" I would like to trade in by broken box of toxic chemicals and heavy metal poisons. How much will you give me for it?”

[wmw999 2,541]

Is the Prius something like a symbol of everything that's wrong with America for you?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Old battery trade in for a prius would go like this:

" I would like to trade in by broken box of toxic chemicals and heavy metal poisons. How much will you give me for it?”

It''s not like man has figured out how to recycle used batteries for future use.

[rushmc 23]

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Is the Prius something like a symbol of everything that's wrong with America for you?

Wendy P.

"Everything"? No

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,073]

>" I would like to trade in by broken box of toxic chemicals and
>heavy metal poisons. How much will you give me for it?”

Compared to a car engine:

"I would like to trade in a broken chunk of toxic chemicals, heavy metal poisons and chemical-laced oils, fluids and greases. Oh, and it's so heavy you can't lift it, it leaks hazardous and poisonous fluids on your floor, it's filthy, you'll need special tools and a crane to even get it out of the car, and you can't put it down without breaking something. You'll need a special stand to even inspect it. And if your dog gets in here and licks the stuff that's spilling it will kill him."

"Now how much will you give me for it?"

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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>" I would like to trade in by broken box of toxic chemicals and
>heavy metal poisons. How much will you give me for it?”

Compared to a car engine:

"I would like to trade in a broken chunk of toxic chemicals, heavy metal poisons and chemical-laced oils, fluids and greases. Oh, and it's so heavy you can't lift it, it leaks hazardous and poisonous fluids on your floor, it's filthy, you'll need special tools and a crane to even get it out of the car, and you can't put it down without breaking something. You'll need a special stand to even inspect it. And if your dog gets in here and licks the stuff that's spilling it will kill him."

"Now how much will you give me for it?"

Usually about $100 (for a usable "core"), maybe $25 as scrap. And if it's in the car at the time, they give you even more for the whole (junk) car.

Most junkyards have recovery/storage facilites for the motor oil and antifreeze (What other "toxic chemicals, heavy metal poisons and chemical laced oils, fluids and greases" are there?).
They also have the tools and cranes to handle it, and you can certainly set a motor on the ground (carefully) without damage.

The shop is already filthy, and they usually don't let the dogs in that area.

I think that we will develop viable methods and markets for the junk batteries (and other stuff unique to hybrids) in time.

We've had a long time (80 years or so?) to develop these techniques and market for the "regular" cars.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 3,073]

>We've had a long time (80 years or so?) to develop these techniques and
>market for the "regular" cars.

Agreed; all the specialized tools, facilities etc have been developed to deal with engines and their hazardous contents.

Now compare that to two hybrid batteries: the Honda Civic and the Prius.

The Civic's battery is under the back seat. Removal involves disconnecting two power wires (bolted on) and four wiring harnesses (plugged in.) It weighs about 70 pounds.

The Prius battery is under the back deck. Removal is similar. It weighs about 110 lbs so it's a two person lift.

Once removed, it's a monolithic unit that does not leak and does not need a special stand to hold it. It can be easily disassembled down to the battery sticks or modules. The bad modules/sticks can be shipped to a recycler and the battery controller/frame (and potentially the good cells) can be reused.

I think overall it's a lot easier to deal with hybrid traction batteries than engines, even with specialized equipment. Heck, it's about as hard to deal with Civic traction batteries as it is to deal with most starter batteries, with the added benefit that the traction batteries are less toxic and do not contain spillable acid.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

How recyclable are the batteries? Is there likely to be technology advances that make the recycling more efficent/cost effective?

Wiki says they are Nickle-Metal Hydride batteries. I don't know how much of the nickle can be recovered, or if it is possible to re-work the materiel to be used in new batteries.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 3,073]

>How recyclable are the batteries?

Well, they can recover the nickel and plastic, and the process is established. The question is - how much will people want to do it? From a pure cost perspective, it costs about $1000-$2000 per ton to recycle ni-mh batteries. Nickel costs about $3 a pound, and you can get about 700 pounds of nickel from a ton of batteries. So a recycler has to spend $1000-$2000 to get $2400.

So right now it's slightly profitable. As the demand for hybrids goes up, and the demand for nickel follows, I'd expect this to get more profitable.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Do you see the costs for recycling going down either because of improved processes or higher volumes?

For some people, small profit margins are still profit.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo