Save the environment, buy a Hummer avoid a Prius

[brenthutch 444]

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer – the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles – the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

Complications

[Anvilbrother 0]

Although I don't know much about the other info posted, unless you pump some serious money into maintenance, and changing parts a hummer has no chance of going 300k before you just gotta give up on it.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[pchapman 279]

I'm not sure I trust the technical accuracy of a study coming from a company with "Marketing" in their name.
Still, whatever the truth, it is common these days to try to figure out what the full life cycle costs are for things. Then you get into issues of whether or how to value hidden costs (e.g., pollution, non-renewable fossible fuels), or how to deal with less mature technologies where costs might come down but haven't yet.

EDIT:

The report is apparently quite old. From wikipedia:

"Dust to Dust". CNW Marketing Research. 2006. http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf.

While a counter argument is:

Peter H. Gleick (2007). "Hummer versus Prius: 'Dust to Dust' Report Misleads the Media and Public with Bad Science". http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

[billeisele 130]

go figure the "dust to dust" on solar panels and you'll quickly see that they're not such a good idea

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[rehmwa 2]

since they are both purchased to provide the owner with a self satisfied smugness of a purely cosmetic nature - I'd rather just let people decide which type of poser they want to be and make their purchase based on that

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles – the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So when you read that, your bullshit detector didn't go off? You really believe that a hummer will go over 300k miles over three plus decades, while the Prius would be dead at 109k?

This had been debunked years ago.

[quade 4]

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The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles – the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So when you read that, your bullshit detector didn't go off? You really believe that a hummer will go over 300k miles over three plus decades, while the Prius would be dead at 109k?
This had been debunked years ago.

People, when they hear something that supports their world view, tend to believe it no matter how far fetched.

All one has to do is google the first line in the article and see how many times it's been copied and pasted on to blogs over the years to see the trend. Each time it was, the person doing it obviously thought it was scientific "proof" their view of the world was confirmed in spite of the simply ridiculous nature of the claim.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[LongWayToFall 0]

Why do you say that? The engine will go much longer than that, probably only needing a valve job and head gaskets about half way through. I could see the portal hubs costing some money to maintain, but beyond that most of the stuff on it should be pretty rugged.

What is the life expectancy for a prius battery, out of curiosity?

[tkhayes 348]

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go figure the "dust to dust" on solar panels and you'll quickly see that they're not such a good idea

where did that come from? Solar electric cells are being produced quite inexpensively these days, low impact and they last 20-30 years at least.

[feuergnom 29]

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go figure the "dust to dust" on solar panels nuclear powerplants and you'll quickly see that they're not such a good idea

fixed it for ya

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[billeisele 130]

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go figure the "dust to dust" on solar panels and you'll quickly see that they're not such a good idea

where did that come from? Solar electric cells are being produced quite inexpensively these days, low impact and they last 20-30 years at least.

TK - there are a few professional articles, some show a benefit and some show no benefit, all of them are close to neutral, depends on the assumptions

inexpensive, as compared to what? for solar PV in my area the payback is over ten years assuming nothing ever breaks and no hail storm, if you remove the government subsidies and other forms of forced support the payback is worse

many details left out, it is region specific, the point is that they are not nearly as great as some want you to believe

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[jgoose71 0]

Yes the Article is old. Nickle cadmium batteries is cars are slowly going the way of the DoDo bird. Mining nickle is a nasty business and Nickle cadmium batteries have a memory and shit the bed rather quickly.

Most new cars use lithium-ion batteries now. Lithium appears to be better than nickle for the environment so some degree, but green technology is still a nasty business. Most lithium mines are in South Africa and Brazil.

Lithium is corrosive and requires special handling to avoid skin contact. Breathing lithium dust or lithium compounds (which are often alkaline) can irritate the nose and throat; higher exposure to lithium can cause a build-up of fluid in the lungs, leading to pulmonary edema. The metal itself is usually a handling hazard because of the caustic hydroxide produced when it is in contact with moisture causing an explosion. Lithium should be stored in a non-reactive compound such as naphtha or a hydrocarbon.

Don't fret though, three things about lithium:
1. Buying a battery won't support Saudi Arabia, UAE, or Iran.
2. Michigan is trying to center new create lithium battery production plants to replace the failed American car companies there.
3. Lithium batteries are recyclable.

If you invested in lithium back in 2005, you would have turned a 1576% profit buy now. It's still on the rise though.

The only thing that really gets me though is you will never here any of the down side of lithium mining from the left though because new battery technology supports their green agenda. I had to look all this up on my own. For a while, I thought it magical appeared from unicorn tears.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[billvon 3,072]

>As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains
>nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario.
>This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding
>environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test
>moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

Correct. But that was forty years ago, as the 'moon rover' test would suggest. Today Sudbury is about as clean as they come when it comes to nickel mines (Google the area to see the forests.)

And, of course, Toyota only started using that nickel 10 years ago. There were no Priuses back when they were testing moon rovers.

In addition, the Hummer uses about fifty pounds of nickel in alloys in the engine, body and trim.

>The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of
>100,000 miles – the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

Hmm. We have 95K miles on ours; no problems. Taxi companies regularly see over 200K miles out of Priuses with minor repairs only (fuel gauges, windshields, headlights, filters/fluids)

>The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to
>put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles.

Given that the H2 consistently scored at the bottom of the reliability index on Consumer Reports, that's not quite accurate. (I mean, sure, it might last 300,000 if you replace the engine, transmission, suspension, electronics etc regularly - but then again, that's going to drive up your cost of ownership.)

This is a study written by a marketing group expressly to assuage the guilty consciences of big-vehicle drivers. Looks like it's accomplished its goals.

[Remster 30]

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Today Sudbury is about as clean as they come when it comes to nickel mines

Bill: You're a tree hugging hippie! You're supposed to stick to the line that Sudbury is still a moonscape wasteland!

The town itself still sucks ass, but the region has in deed recovered from the abuse it got in the mid-1900s.

Remster

[CanuckInUSA 0]

A Toyota Prius? Please ... talk about a boring "sterilize me" car.

Why is it that tree huggers insist on cutting off one of their >> all in the name of saving the planet. If you are going to drive a hybrid, do it right. If I was to own a hybrid I would want it to be this car. It only managed to finish on the podium recently in a VLN 24 hour endurance race at the Nurburgring in Germany. Plus there is talk that soon it will be making it's debut at LeMans. Of course not this year at LeMans since the 2010 iteration of the iconic "24 Heures du Mans" race just happened this last weekend.

Carry on ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

BTW ... for those too lazy to read up about the 911 R Hybrid, the two electric motors powering the front wheels of this car use a flywheel, not a battery. The flywheel generator has the advantage of storing and delivering high amounts of energy considerably quicker and one does not need to worry about destroying the planet with harmful nickel batteries like they would if they were driving a Toyota Prius. Of course this 911 Hybrid car is not ready for the masses yet. But you have to know that Hybrid technology developed by Porsche on the race track will be superior to anything Toyota comes up with.

Of course I will come out and admit it. I am bias towards the German automakers capability. They have 60+ years of racing experience which has helped them make some of the best production cars this world has ever seen.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kelpdiver 2]

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But you have to know that Hybrid technology developed by Porsche on the race track will be superior to anything Toyota comes up with.

will it get 50mpg? Will it get 30?

Hybrid for performance isn't the same as hybrid for energy efficiency.

[billvon 3,072]

>The flywheel generator has the advantage of storing and delivering high
>amounts of energy considerably quicker . . .

Ultracaps have similar storage and power delivery specs - and you don't have the gyroscopic effect to fight in turns or the nasty complications from loss of flywheel containment (i.e. instant death.)

[billvon 3,072]

>go figure the "dust to dust" on solar panels and you'll quickly see that
>they're not such a good idea

Energy payback time for solar panels range from 1.5 to 2.6 years i.e. it takes 1.5 to 2.6 years to generate the power to make them. Most of that energy, ironically, is in the aluminum frame. After that you are generating more than you used to make them. Since modern crystalline panels last effectively forever (no wearout mechanism) they just get better with age.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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will it get 50mpg? Will it get 30?

Hybrid for performance isn't the same as hybrid for energy efficiency.

One of the reasons why the 911 R Hybrid finished on the podium at the recent 24 hour VLN race in Germany was because it did not need to make as many pit stops as it's 100% gasoline counterparts did.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kelpdiver 2]

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will it get 50mpg? Will it get 30?

Hybrid for performance isn't the same as hybrid for energy efficiency.

One of the reasons why the 911 R Hybrid finished on the podium at the recent 24 hour VLN race in Germany was because it did not need to make as many pit stops as it's 100% gasoline counterparts did.

Sure - races consist of drivers constantly flooring it out of curves, so this 6-8 seconds of electric boost is a big fuel saver over the others. But that doesn't have a huge bearing for commuters. In an environment with frequent stops and starts, the Prius approach of using the electric exclusively for low speeds is the more productive approach, if fuel efficiency is the objective.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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will it get 50mpg? Will it get 30?

Hybrid for performance isn't the same as hybrid for energy efficiency.

One of the reasons why the 911 R Hybrid finished on the podium at the recent 24 hour VLN race in Germany was because it did not need to make as many pit stops as it's 100% gasoline counterparts did.

Sure - races consist of drivers constantly flooring it out of curves, so this 6-8 seconds of electric boost is a big fuel saver over the others. But that doesn't have a huge bearing for commuters. In an environment with frequent stops and starts, the Prius approach of using the electric exclusively for low speeds is the more productive approach, if fuel efficiency is the objective.

Races consist of drivers "constantly flooring it out of curves" and also slamming on the brakes going into those same curves. That's the main way hybrids conserve, isn't it? Finding a way to store some of the energy used (absorbed and dissipated actually) to stop the car and then use it to accelerate?

And where the Prius is most efficient is in stop and go city traffic (it has a higher city mpg rating than highway).

And most of the city driving I see consists of drivers flooring it out of lights and stop signs and then slamming their brakes on at the next stop sign or red light

You can use energy savings to increase performance or efficiency.

And CanuckinUSA:

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...technology developed by Porsche on the race track will be superior to anything Toyota comes up with.

Toyota has a pretty competenent racing program, but they'll never be superior to Porsche

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kallend 2,106]

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In addition, the Hummer uses about fifty pounds of nickel in alloys in the engine, body and trim.

Anything containing a medium to high strength steel contains nickel. For example AISI4340 contains 1.65 to 2.0 percent nickel, as well as Chromium (also very nasty to the environment), manganese and molybdenum. The stainless steel hardware on your skydiving rig contains some 8 -10% nickel.

Brent's post is just plain ignorant.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 444]

I am just bringing up the point that there are externalities with green tech as well as the old school stuff.

My post was to be evocate not advocate. It was to bring up a point of discussion.

[quade 4]

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My post was to be evocate not advocate. It was to bring up a point of discussion.

Ah, so you are admitting it was simply a copy and paste of an old piece of disproven trash in order to troll?

Kind of a shameful tactic don't you think?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver