RALFFERS 0
QuoteQuote
---Surely, the original story was anything but the version that we have in the present day; the thing with myths is the longer they survive & are passed on, the more they are believed, & more so, defended with [supposed] rationale
Myths that are false fade away and pass out of our collective consciousness. Truth, survives cultures and time because it is always relevant.
...
how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who also is willing to send people to hell?
The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested.
It is just killing you that you or i can't understand that. It is simple if you accept Christ as your Lord you have the eternal gift. Did Job curse at God when God allowed Satan to mess with him like that? God knows what is going to happen and how it happens before anyone. Trusting his judgment is part of faith. Am I happy if a kid a 5 year old dies from leukemia or a 15 year old or my friend Ludy who got run over twice by a car and died while being 5 months pregnant no ofcorse not and it really sucks. But for every bad thing that happens God will bring good of it. People were born blind and had other disabilities from birth as well in the bible and while it may seem unfair in our eyes at the time we must have faith in his judgment.
You can't understand the full knowledge of God Ralf, if you knew the full knowledge of God you really wouldn't need him then, because what's the point if your perfect?
I do know that hell can be worse for some and not as bad for others though
http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/04/05/hell-what-does-the-bible-says-about-it/. Scroll down and go to hell differs for some ppl. It has verses clearly stating this..
Society can't condemn something that is eternal . God has to be the judge for eternal life, and people/governments/laws etc judge what happens to you in this life based on your actions here but that is NOT eternal..Sinners would not like Heaven, sinners would destroy it.
I think part of the problem people have generally in my opinion is that they hate to admit that there are some things us as humans will not understand because we are not perfect and we do not have that kind of capacity.
QuoteQuote
--how do you justify eternal punishment, man?... I'm sorry, but society wouldn't even condemn Hitler to burn forever. Furthermore, how do you reconcile a loving god - but one who E.also is willing to send people to hell?
The god of the bible sounds like an egotistical, power-tripping pricK... I'm not interested.
Personally , I think the concept of hell is a bit over blown. Allegorical fire is used in the Bible to cleanse both those who love God and those who don't. I imagine hell will be a place of regret over lost opportunities. What ever the place is, it is not Gods best for us.
...
This is just one of many biblical inconsistencies. Read Romans, chapter 9 - and then tell me man has freewill; any choice in the matter...
God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES that we make
billvon 2,991
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES
>that we make . . .
Then they are not choices, now, are they? They are merely predestined actions that you have no power over.
>that we make . . .
Then they are not choices, now, are they? They are merely predestined actions that you have no power over.
RALFFERS 0
Quote>God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES
>that we make . . .
Then they are not choices, now, are they? They are merely predestined actions that you have no power over.
No, to be fair, knowing the choice of people in a way like seeing the future, & influencing the choice are two different things. But when we speak of the bible, knowing = predestined/predetermined. So you're right, it's not a choice at all.
Pete, I read the thing you sent me Pertaining to Romans 9:7-21 (here is the link so everyone else can read it) & would like to point out a few things (bolded & underlined for added emphasis). You say that God judges us simply on our actions, simply because he knows what we're going to do in advance. But the very article you sent me, as well as the bible itself is stating the complete opposite.
QuoteTruthfully, the text is not that hard to understand. The teaching is pretty clear. The problem is that we don’t like what the passage teaches.
Right here, in the very beginning the author admits that we're not going to like what we hear - because it's not fair.
QuotePaul began the chapter addressing an anticipated question: “Has God’s promise to Israel failed since so many Jews have turned away from Christ?” The answer Paul gives is, God never intended for all Jews to be saved.
QuoteYet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand; not by works but by him who calls—she was told
QuoteThe troubling phrase “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” is taken from the book of Malachi. The quote is from the first verses of Malachi where God spoke to the descendents of Jacob and Esau and promised to bless Jacob (Israel) and demolish Esau (Edom). I wish the verse wasn’t here . . .but it is. It reminds us that in the end some will be saved and face God’s blessing while others will be lost and face His wrath.
Even the article's author has a problem with this very teaching that he's trying to justify.
QuoteIt is natural to think that God chose Jacob because God knew the kind of people Jacob and Esau were going to be. However, Paul makes it a point to say that Jacob was chosen NOT because of anything he had done or because of anything that he would do, but solely so “God’s purpose in election might stand
So in fact its not God judging us based on what we do that he see;s beforehand, just god choosing.
QuoteAs I said, these illustrations are not that hard to understand. Paul is saying, “Salvation is something that is given to those God chooses to give it to.”
Quote In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Nothing is said here of people's choice over god's will/predetermined plan.
QuoteWhat then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
QuoteGod told Moses that mercy and compassion are dispensed solely at God’s discretion.
QuoteTo understand this argument we have to understand the difference between mercy and justice. Justice is getting what you deserve. For God to be universally just, He should condemn us all. We deserve to be “hated” like Esau.
Why, Because Eve ate off a tree that god forbid her to long before any of us were born, so we have to serve time for it?... That's like you going to jail for something I did...
Does that sound like justice to you?
Quote19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
In other words, “If God has already decided who will be saved, How can God hold people accountable if they don’t respond to the gospel?” Paul’s response is a little less than satisfying. He says, “Who are you to talk back to God? He made us and He can do what he wants with us.”
This is just poor argumentation on the part of the author;; I.E god is god, therefore he can do whatever he wants without question Ask yourself if such an argument would hold up in a court of law - but instead of god we were examining a person.
QuoteSome people leave Romans 9 all upset. They conclude that if they take Romans 9 seriously they lose any sense of human freedom. That’s an erroneous conclusion. We will see in chapter 10 of Romans that Paul tells us that the Jews have fallen away because they did not believe. He places the responsibility squarely on their choice.
This is faulty logic.; you can't say all that St. Paul & the writer of this article said previously, & then make this statement without the two contradicting each other. Another words, a car can't be painted all blue, but also be all black - it's either one or the other. The author's best attempts to explain/justify th above inconsistencies begin when he cites Lawrence Kohlberg's 6 stages of moral development. Even still, I don't find it sufficient enough.
Lastly, look at John Macarthur's commentary 1Peter 1:2, which reads:
Quoteaccording to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Macarthur's footnote from his study bible:
Quote1:2 foreknowledge. The same grammatical word is translated "foreknown" in verse 20. In both verses, the word does not refer to awareness of what is going to happen, but it clearly means a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of the Lord. God brought the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time. Christians are foreknown for salvation the same way Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sins (cf. Acts 2:23). Foreknowledge means that God planned before, not that He observed before (cf. Exodus 33:17; Jeremiah 1:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:23). Thus, God pre-thought and pre-determined or predestined each Christian's salvation see notes on Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:4).
It is worth noting that this passage, & many others like it is the reason why people have been debating for centuries, & are in one of two camps - Calvinism and Arminianism. There are just two many contradictions & inconsistencies to explain; the bible doesn't hold together nearly as well as Christians like to claim that it does.
Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -
"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of
"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of
QuoteQuote>God knows our fate and actions before were born including the CHOICES
>that we make . . .
Then they are not choices, now, are they? They are merely predestined actions that you have no power over.
No, to be fair, knowing the choice of people in a way like seeing the future, & influencing the choice are two different things. But when we speak of the bible, knowing = predestined/predetermined. So you're right, it's not a choice at all.
Pete, I read the thing you sent me Pertaining to Romans 9:7-21 (here is the link so everyone else can read it) & would like to point out a few things (bolded & underlined for added emphasis). You say that God judges us simply on our actions, simply because he knows what we're going to do in advance. But the very article you sent me, as well as the bible itself is stating the complete opposite.QuoteTruthfully, the text is not that hard to understand. The teaching is pretty clear. The problem is that we don’t like what the passage teaches.
Right here, in the very beginning the author admits that we're not going to like what we hear - because it's not fair.QuotePaul began the chapter addressing an anticipated question: “Has God’s promise to Israel failed since so many Jews have turned away from Christ?” The answer Paul gives is, God never intended for all Jews to be saved.
QuoteYet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand; not by works but by him who calls—she was told
QuoteThe troubling phrase “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” is taken from the book of Malachi. The quote is from the first verses of Malachi where God spoke to the descendents of Jacob and Esau and promised to bless Jacob (Israel) and demolish Esau (Edom). I wish the verse wasn’t here . . .but it is. It reminds us that in the end some will be saved and face God’s blessing while others will be lost and face His wrath.
Even the article's author has a problem with this very teaching that he's trying to justify.QuoteIt is natural to think that God chose Jacob because God knew the kind of people Jacob and Esau were going to be. However, Paul makes it a point to say that Jacob was chosen NOT because of anything he had done or because of anything that he would do, but solely so “God’s purpose in election might stand
So in fact its not God judging us based on what we do that he see;s beforehand, just god choosing.QuoteAs I said, these illustrations are not that hard to understand. Paul is saying, “Salvation is something that is given to those God chooses to give it to.”
Quote In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
Nothing is said here of people's choice over god's will/predetermined plan.QuoteWhat then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
QuoteGod told Moses that mercy and compassion are dispensed solely at God’s discretion.
QuoteTo understand this argument we have to understand the difference between mercy and justice. Justice is getting what you deserve. For God to be universally just, He should condemn us all. We deserve to be “hated” like Esau.
Why, Because Eve ate off a tree that god forbid her to long before any of us were born, so we have to serve time for it?... That's like you going to jail for something I did...Does that sound like justice to you?
Quote19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
In other words, “If God has already decided who will be saved, How can God hold people accountable if they don’t respond to the gospel?” Paul’s response is a little less than satisfying. He says, “Who are you to talk back to God? He made us and He can do what he wants with us.”
This is just poor argumentation on the part of the author;; I.E god is god, therefore he can do whatever he wants without question Ask yourself if such an argument would hold up in a court of law - but instead of god we were examining a person.QuoteSome people leave Romans 9 all upset. They conclude that if they take Romans 9 seriously they lose any sense of human freedom. That’s an erroneous conclusion. We will see in chapter 10 of Romans that Paul tells us that the Jews have fallen away because they did not believe. He places the responsibility squarely on their choice.
This is faulty logic.; you can't say all that St. Paul & the writer of this article said previously, & then make this statement without the two contradicting each other. Another words, a car can't be painted all blue, but also be all black - it's either one or the other. The author's best attempts to explain/justify th above inconsistencies begin when he cites Lawrence Kohlberg's 6 stages of moral development. Even still, I don't find it sufficient enough.
Lastly, look at John Macarthur's commentary 1Peter 1:2, which reads:Quoteaccording to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Macarthur's footnote from his study bible:Quote1:2 foreknowledge. The same grammatical word is translated "foreknown" in verse 20. In both verses, the word does not refer to awareness of what is going to happen, but it clearly means a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of the Lord. God brought the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time. Christians are foreknown for salvation the same way Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sins (cf. Acts 2:23). Foreknowledge means that God planned before, not that He observed before (cf. Exodus 33:17; Jeremiah 1:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:23). Thus, God pre-thought and pre-determined or predestined each Christian's salvation see notes on Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:4).
It is worth noting that this passage, & many others like it is the reason why people have been debating for centuries, & are in one of two camps - Calvinism and Arminianism. There are just two many contradictions & inconsistencies to explain; the bible doesn't hold together nearly as well as Christians like to claim that it does.
In Romans and in that article in a different section it also sates that some things God left unexplained in the bible, not because there is no reason but because we would not be able to understand such knowledge. Who are you or I to say it is unfair and or wrong if you or I do not have the knowledge that God has. Again your trying to understand and know God's full knowledge and that is impossible because there are things that God did leave unexplained because we would not understand. Heck like you said people have a hard time understanding the bible because it does not seem fair to us u used the word "debating". Trying to understand the knowledge that God provided in the bible is hard enough for us as humans with the capacity we have to fully understand which is why it requires FAITH. Your not perfect, you do not posses God's power and knowledge and neither do i or any other human being on this planet, why do you think Christians keep growing through out there lifetime? Because the knowledge that God provided in the bible and the truth is already very hard for us to understand and takes a beyond a lifetime to fully understand. Believe it or not but Ed is still growing in his faith and he actually didn't see some things the way I did or understand fully as I did and same goes for me and how he understands certain verse. instead of focusing on the thing that you find unfair in the Bible in your eyes and mind you should focus on God and his will and especially remind you of what he has done for you. I can see why you see Romans 9 as unfair or contradicting with your mind but you have to have faith in God's judgment. If you Believe a a supernatural being called God is holy and perfect then you have to understand that there are things that only a person or being as perfect as God would understand.
As far as predestined actions, dude that is part of life man hate to tell you. Just like there are criminals/rapist/very stubborn people etc and there are good genuine people who love Christ, you have to expect that in a world that is not perfect or just. Why do you think God will create a new world?? In a world that is not perfect there has to bad people and good people to have a balance. Bad people are required so that Christians can be challenged in there faith.
And once again believing in God and his judgment is not easy and does require FAITH which i do not think you understand fully. it is not easy to have faith at times and it is not always easy to live life for Christ, especially if it dosent always appeal to us.
Believing in anything requires faith and or a strong belief that your belief is true and believing that thing knows what is best and or what is true including science.
I am not trying to scare you here with this comment Ralf but think logically, do the consequences/benefits of what if there is a God, outweigh the benefits/consequences of what if there is not.
You can find something wrong and nit pick at everything Ralf. There are many scientist that believe in God/Creationism just like there are many scientist that don't. Anything that you believe in requires a strong faith to believe that it is right and it is the best option or best explanation of life.
There are many things that prove that god exist and you can make a very good argument about it and there are things you can use to disprove God, but nothing is 100% explained and requires faith.
Personally I believe that is more humbling to believe in a God that is perfect and understanding that I do not and will not have the capacity or full knowledge of God until I am in Heaven, as opposed to thinking "oh God is contradicting himself and this is unjust screw this"I am not saying you said those exact words but that is how I see it as. You seem to be struggling with your own sense of pride and or submission to God. Nothing is easy all Christian doubt to at one point in their lives.
Sorry if it seems like I repeated myself but even in the article it shows us that you need to have faith he fact that he mentioned "Truthfully, the text is not that hard to understand. The teaching is pretty clear. The problem is that we don’t like what the passage teaches."
And as far as you talking about eve and eating the apple and us having to pay the price for it. Well that is true actually, if your parents were let say into cults and black and white magic and they had son that grew up with those parents it will effect the kid negatively, so yea Eve taking a bite of that apple will effect the outcome on other peoples lives with sin..
Just like a kid who has a father that beats him and his wife because of his drinking will effect the kid in his life negatively with sin. Is it fair of course not, but what can you expect in a world that is not perfect?
You have to have faith in the God's plan..
maadmax 0
It is worth noting that this passage, & many others like it is the reason why people have been debating for centuries, & are in one of two camps - Calvinism and Arminianism. There are just two many contradictions & inconsistencies to explain; the bible doesn't hold together nearly as well as Christians like to claim that it does.
It is interesting to see what trips people up. Some get bent out of shape when they can't understand God's concept of knowledge in relation to time. Just a cursory look and general relativity will tell you that the understanding of time and space is complex. And that for us, with only a linear uni-dimensional view of time and space, reality would look a lot different than it does with God's multi-dimensional view of time and space. The theory of general relativity says that the time arrow is multi-directional. God must see everything happening linearly like we do and simultaneous all at the same time. With that in mind, questions like , "how do He know what I am going to do, before I do" and "If He know what I do before I do it, how do I have any say in the matter" become irrelevant. Unless of course you just want to find a straw man to bolster unbelief.
...
billvon 2,991
>And once again believing in God and his judgment is not easy and does
> require FAITH . . .
No, it doesn't. If God already knows the actions you will take, then "easy" or "hard" is not an issue. Faith is not required. What has been destined to happen, will happen, whether or not you have faith.
>if your parents were let say into cults and black and white magic and they
>had son that grew up with those parents it will effect the kid negatively
Right, but again, it doesn't matter. They could do nothing else; they did not have a choice in the matter. God already knew what they were going to do.
> require FAITH . . .
No, it doesn't. If God already knows the actions you will take, then "easy" or "hard" is not an issue. Faith is not required. What has been destined to happen, will happen, whether or not you have faith.
>if your parents were let say into cults and black and white magic and they
>had son that grew up with those parents it will effect the kid negatively
Right, but again, it doesn't matter. They could do nothing else; they did not have a choice in the matter. God already knew what they were going to do.
beowulf 1
QuoteUnless of course you just want to find a straw man to bolster unbelief.
A straw man isn't necessary. The fact that there is no evidence of any god regardless of your how you define god is enough support disbelief.
maadmax 0
A straw man isn't necessary. The fact that there is no evidence of any god regardless of your how you define god is enough support disbelief.
You have got to know this whole excuse of God's doesn't exist because science can't prove He exists is a bunch of crap. There is such a huge hole in science being the defining last word on reality that it is laughable. Physics has nothing to say about the development of complexity. Yes they give a reductionist view of the mechanics behind matter and energy, but nothing in any of the scientific theories explains how or why complexity occurs. To over look this small point disqualifies one from a realistic discussion on the big picture of reality.
beowulf 1
QuoteYou have got to know this whole excuse of God's doesn't exist because science can't prove He exists is a bunch of crap.
You wouldn't have to prove that a god exists you just have to show evidence to suggest there is a god. The fact that there is complex life doesn't not mean there is a god. We have a lots of evidence supporting evolution yet none supporting creationism.
edited to add:
You seem to think because we can't explain everything that there must be a god. Historically god has always been the catch all for everything we don't understand. As we learn more and more about the world around us humans attribute less and less to god. I think it's unreasonable and short sighted to simply attribute anything we don't understand to some god that we have no evidence of and it's also the lazy way out. It basically puts a stop to scientific advancement. Imagine if no one ever questioned the belief that the earth was flat or that the earth revolved around the sun. These were beliefs that Christianity really wanted to hold onto and considered it blasphemy to suggest anything different.
QuoteOur existence isn't meaningless. We're here to destroy the planet and ourselves in the process.
Doing a bang up job so far...
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
I figured that sooner or later you would give me a reason to like you. LOL
maadmax 0
You wouldn't have to prove that a god exists you just have to show evidence to suggest there is a god. The fact that there is complex life doesn't not mean there is a god. We have a lots of evidence supporting evolution yet none supporting creationism.
edited to add:
You seem to think because we can't explain everything that there must be a god. Historically god has always been the catch all for everything we don't understand. As we learn more and more about the world around us humans attribute less and less to god. I think it's unreasonable and short sighted to simply attribute anything we don't understand to some god that we have no evidence of and it's also the lazy way out. It basically puts a stop to scientific advancement. Imagine if no one ever questioned the belief that the earth was flat or that the earth revolved around the sun. These were beliefs that Christianity really wanted to hold onto and considered it blasphemy to suggest anything different.
edited to add:
You seem to think because we can't explain everything that there must be a god. Historically god has always been the catch all for everything we don't understand. As we learn more and more about the world around us humans attribute less and less to god. I think it's unreasonable and short sighted to simply attribute anything we don't understand to some god that we have no evidence of and it's also the lazy way out. It basically puts a stop to scientific advancement. Imagine if no one ever questioned the belief that the earth was flat or that the earth revolved around the sun. These were beliefs that Christianity really wanted to hold onto and considered it blasphemy to suggest anything different.
Theories of complexity are not limited to evolution but to the entire structure of the universe. Science has no explanation for why complexity occurs. The only problem with waiting for somebody to prove God exists is that your life is ticking away, and you are losing valuable opportunities to redeem the time you have been given. Acknowledging God and growing in grace is not a hindrance to scientific discovery.
...
Personally , I think the concept of hell is a bit over blown. Allegorical fire is used in the Bible to cleanse both those who love God and those who don't. I imagine hell will be a place of regret over lost opportunities. What ever the place is, it is not Gods best for us.
...
This is just one of many biblical inconsistencies. Read Romans, chapter 9 - and then tell me man has freewill; any choice in the matter...
"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of