I'm becoming an atheist

[maadmax 0]

Serious miracles? nice to see you get plural miracles, I would love to see just one of our kids have any type of miracle.

Look in the mirror. You are that miracle for them. Just imagine what their life would be like if you weren't there to share their pain, and show them love and compassion.

[kallend 2,027]

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Serious miracles? nice to see you get plural miracles, I would love to see just one of our kids have any type of miracle.

Look in the mirror. You are that miracle for them. Just imagine what their life would be like if you weren't there to share their pain, and show them love and compassion.

While jcla's work is indeed highly admirable, you are seriously devaluing the meaning of "miracle".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[maadmax 0]

While jcla's work is indeed highly admirable, you are seriously devaluing the meaning of "miracle".

[kallend 2,027]

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While jcla's work is indeed highly admirable, you are seriously devaluing the meaning of "miracle".

Any time love, compassion, kindness manifests itself in the world, I consider that a miracle of the highest order. Remember your origins, at one time you were just a bunch of hydrogen and helium atoms randomly bouncing around in the primordial universe.

[stevebabin 0]

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While jcla's work is indeed highly admirable, you are seriously devaluing the meaning of "miracle".

Any time love, compassion, kindness manifests itself in the world, I consider that a miracle of the highest order.

[Bolas 5]

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See, and you're not a suicide bomber, right? You don't kill people and start crusades, right?

I realize you're just trying to have fun with this, but at least contribute something productive to the conversation. These little snide remarks don't do anything. No one in here suggested that ALL religious people are evil. Religion is just the root of a large percentage of the world's violence.

Ha! The snide remark did something, because you responded, and I don't think there's anything productive to contribute to such a silly thread, but I'll try...

Many are too short sighted and/or close minded to see that it's also the root of a large percentage of the world's peace.

How was that?

An anology:

Two guys are working in a homeless shelter. Both work equally hard and help out.

One guy is doing it because he believes it's the right thing to do and just wants to help others.

The other guy is there only because of a cute chick there he wants to bang.

While the actions may be the same, the motives are not.

Well, I know which on I am!

Okay, now replace homeless shelter with a terrorist group.

One guy is doing it because he believes it's the right thing to do and just wants to help others by putting an end to their "infedel" lives.

The other guy is there only because of the virgins he's been promised.

In both cases, you have a believer and a reward influenced person. The latter can be shaped or "bought" to join a variety of groups.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[maadmax 0]

I love cheetos...I'm going to buy some. It's a miricle.(of the highest order)
It's a matter of perspective. I see working with injured children as something that makes the world better and therefore a worthy endeavor. No god involved. The delusional among us consider it a miricle of the highest order. YMMV.

[maadmax 0]

You may consider the outcomes of the laws of physics and chemistry to be a miracle. Most people would NOT use that word to describe them.

[stevebabin 0]

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I love cheetos...I'm going to buy some. It's a miricle.(of the highest order)
It's a matter of perspective. I see working with injured children as something that makes the world better and therefore a worthy endeavor. No god involved. The delusional among us consider it a miricle of the highest order. YMMV.

Damn Steve, my hat is off to you. You are one hard hearted scoundrel. Tell me what gives you joy in life. Is there anything you encounter that makes you pause for just a milisecond and say wow that was special? Or are you like the Rolling Stones song that just wants to paint the whole world black?

[sabrepilot25 0]

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You may consider the outcomes of the laws of physics and chemistry to be a miracle. Most people would NOT use that word to describe them.

Do you have pier reviewed documented proof for that statements. Or did you just pull it out of some dark forbidding orifice that happened to be handy, albeit a little odoriferous?

[billvon 2,991]

>>You may consider the outcomes of the laws of physics and chemistry to
>>be a miracle. Most people would NOT use that word to describe them.

>Do you have pier reviewed documented proof for that statements.

Sure. Take any physics class. You will quickly decide that physics is more hard work (and fewer miracles) than you ever imagined.

[Coreece 190]

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I deal with my self just fine,I would not change my job or profession for anything.

That's good to hear...It just seems that you often bring up these kids for whom you give care, than use their pain as an excuse to not believe in God.

You're always thowing that in our faces along with the whole bashing babies heads thing...

But I have to give you props for your work, I don't think I could do it...it seems very depressing and really affects you. Have you ever considered that perhaps your compassion, love and patience is a gift from God. Do you think it would ever be possible for you to thank Him for that?

Also, I'm sorry to hear that you haven't seen any progress/miracles with any of the children. I have prayed about it and for you last time we discussed this issue. Perhaps a different perspective may allow you to see some good in these situations? But I understand how that could be very difficult, and I hope that question doesn't offend you.

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You did do a nice job how ever of skipping the qustion about miracles.

so you're making an issue out of me saying "serious miracles" instead of just "miracles?" That's just the way I talk sometimes.

Everybody seems to want some type of miracle in order to believe, but I don't think that's how it works. Jesus performed a multitude of miracles and the religious leaders of that time said that was just because He's a demon.

There is the miracle of life (great movie btw) but many people refuse to look at it that way.

God could present Himself right now to your face in all his glory and you'd still have to have the faith that you weren't crazy.

As I said many times before (as well as some athiests here) God requires faith. Even Jesus couldn't perform miracles in his hometown because of a lack of faith...they were basically like who does this guy think he is...he's just that carpenter.

Faith is very important. If you were in a relationship with a woman, I would suspect that you'd want her to love you for who you are...to have faith in you and stand behind you, especially in the rough times. Not just to stick with you because she was forced to or just in order to get what she wants...if that was the case, you'd probably just let her go her own way. (if in fact you were looking for a serious relationship in the first place.)

To me, that fact that I'm still alive is a miracle.

It's a miracle that I can believe the foolishness of the Bible. It's a miracle that I understand why I understand that foolishness.

It's a miracle that I'm still a Christian.

I know this post is getting long but I want to share the most recent miracle in my life because it just happened last night/early morning and it's fresh in my head and referenced earlier in this thread.

I associate with some shady people in various areas, and there's this one drug dealing thug "D" in Detroit to whom I've been trying to explain some things in the Bible this past year...Last night we got to talking and he was telling me about how this one guy came up to him and asked if he wanted to be saved. He said ya man whatever. The evangelist said repeat after me, and they went through that whole salvation prayer mumbo jumbo and the evangelist said ok man that's it, you're saved. D told me "man, that was a bunch of bullshit, I can't just say some words and be all saved n' shit...I gotta act on it. I told him right on man. Then a Christian friend of mine said here dude, just read this part of the Bible for a minute...he read and my man just starts balling his eyes out, walks away and takes a moment like he's seeing himself as he really is for the first time.

...the night goes on and everybody decides to go hang out at a popular railroad bridge out in the forest. A guy fell off last year and bacame paralysed, and a woman fell off during the day yesterday and was lucky enough to only break her leg when she landed on a railroad tie in the river (or a log, not sure which)...it's a pretty dangerous area, even getting there is a challenge. Anyways everybody's having a good time until this 21 year old nutcase blacked out pill junkie falls off the bridge...splash, then nothing, no sound except everybody yelling oh shit! We can't see anything...I'm thinking that's it, he's gone...actually I don't know what I was thinking, all I know is that Now I'm falling and smack the water hard...I'm looking then see a sllouhette of the kid pop up coughing and panicing as the current takes him away...I don't know how, but I make it to him and as expected he's grabbing, tuggin, pullin pushing me under...I'm stuggling to get back up above water and subdue him so I can bring him in, which I do, but then he starts panicing again...I can't see anything and the current's just cruising us along, I'm back under water struggling with him, gained a lil bit of control when my man the drug dealer comes floating up out of nowhere to help calm the kid down....we're yelling realx dude relax we got you, but nothing...than I don't know, I think D clocked him in the face to stun him or something, but he calmed down and I was finally able to bring him in...The poor kid is coughing and falling all over the place and can barely stand. We make it back to the tracks where the kid falls numerous times cutting up his whole body and the side of his face on the rocks/tracks...so we carry him back to the main road blood all over then the cops pass by and make a U-turn. They get out and are like what the shit is goig on....we told them the whole story and they just said allright, get him back to a safe place and took down their names.(not sure why they didn't take my name)

A few hours later all three of us made it to church...no shower, all scraped up...the kid gotta black eye....we're basically looking like the Three Stoodges, but all was fine...good sermon to...Spiritual warfare.

I probably won't see those guys for awhile and though I can't say if either is gonna follow through with the God thing...I know they've been knocked off the road they were on...Hopefully the kid makes it to rehab and D stops selling drugs like he said and commits himself to God.

It was a miracle I was even there with these people.

It was a miracle none of us were injured/killed when we hit the log/tie infested waters.

It was a miracle we didn't drown.

It was a miracle the cops let us take care of our own business.

It was a miracle we all made it to church only a few hours later.

I'm sure there are more miraculous stories out there, especially with all you skydivers, just thought I share that cause it was fresh in my head.

Christians hope for the day when this hell on earth will all be over...the hell you see everydaywith those children. We hope for the miracle of perfection...the way I think we all know it should be.

IMO, I think we have to go through this in order to understand and appretiate that perfection which is to come.

It's like when an old homeless person can really appreciate a cup of warm soup, while that young spoiled ignorant little brat complains about his 5 course meal.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Meso 38]

I love how people always seem to trade logic for religious influence.

I feel kind of disappointed when I see people thanking God for their own work. It must suck to feel like you have to thank someone else for the things you did. People need to realize that what they achieve is thanks to them, not God. Or else all Atheists would be sitting in the street, homeless.

Miracles are all about odds.

If I flip a coin long enough, it'll land on heads 10 times in a row. Does that mean that when it happens it's a miracle from God? Negative.

People just pass over all the bad shit that happens, and then when something good happens it's God's work.

So millions die each year, but when one goes against the odds and survives it's a miracle? No it's not.

The world must be a very spectacular place when one is able to pass on all the bad stuff as 'normal' and the occasional good thing as a 'miracle'.

People need to stop passing on basic odds onto God, as well as their own achievements.

[philh 0]

Agreed but the othher part of my question, was regarding God, is he considered perfect by mainstream Chrsitiainity? and if so do you agree with them?

[Meso 38]

To add on to that...

The comparison towards the Pope is inaccurate I feel. Most Christians I know have a strong dislike for Catholics as they see their religion as blasphemous due to the worshipping of 'idols'. And the Catholics I know get extremely offended when referred to as Christians and recently one stated "I'm Catholic, not Christian- I hate Christians!".

But billvon, I don't think it's really about the bible being perfect. It's about God himself being perfect. Again, from personal experience, the Christians I know admit some of the bible may be flawed since it was written by man and has been subject to additions and omissions by the church. Many of which claim to just follow the principle teachings of the bible and not take it as 100% fact.

Though all of them claim God himself is perfect. Any error in his teachings were caused by man.

[kallend 2,027]

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To add on to that...

The comparison towards the Pope is inaccurate I feel. Most Christians I know have a strong dislike for Catholics as they see their religion as blasphemous due to the worshipping of 'idols'. And the Catholics I know get extremely offended when referred to as Christians and recently one stated "I'm Catholic, not Christian- I hate Christians!".

But billvon, I don't think it's really about the bible being perfect. It's about God himself being perfect. Again, from personal experience, the Christians I know admit some of the bible may be flawed since it was written by man and has been subject to additions and omissions by the church. Many of which claim to just follow the principle teachings of the bible and not take it as 100% fact.

Though all of them claim God himself is perfect. Any error in his teachings were caused by man.

A perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god who can create an entire universe in 6 days shouldn't have much trouble fixing up the errors in a book in 2,000 years.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Meso 38]

You can't expect Christians to start thinking logically now ;)

[jakee 1,489]

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It was a miracle I was even there with these people.

It was a miracle none of us were injured/killed when we hit the log/tie infested waters.

It was a miracle we didn't drown.

It was a miracle the cops let us take care of our own business.

It was a miracle we all made it to church only a few hours later.

I'm sure there are more miraculous stories out there,

Since your definition of miracle appears to be "anything that happens that's good" then yeah, I bet there are quite a few.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bolas 5]

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Even Jesus couldn't perform miracles in his hometown because of a lack of faith...they were basically like who does this guy think he is...he's just that carpenter.

So even when alive, Jesus could only perform "miracles" for those that already believed?

I'd think if one wanted to truly save all and had the power to do so, showing non believers in your "home town" miracles would be far more effective.

That is, unless he was just a man and not the son/embodiment of God.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[dontsplatmatt 0]

That atrocious piece of fiction does not and will not ever make sense. Read a bit closer and without bias, and you will see that the "author" is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

[maadmax 0]

That atrocious piece of fiction does not and will not ever make sense. Read a bit closer and without bias, and you will see that the "author" is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

[billvon 2,991]

> Are you afraid we are going to take over the world and then ,God
> forbid, maybe tell you what to do?

Well, given that religions have tried to do just that in the past, that's not an unfounded fear.

[Coreece 190]

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That atrocious piece of fiction does not and will not ever make sense. Read a bit closer and without bias, and you will see that the "author" is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

That is one thing about the Bible I always find amazing. It reflects back what ever the reader is looking for.

[beowulf 1]

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That atrocious piece of fiction does not and will not ever make sense. Read a bit closer and without bias, and you will see that the "author" is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

That is one thing about the Bible I always find amazing. It reflects back what ever the reader is looking for. Regardless if its Truth or perversion.
Why do atheists send so much effort trying to debunk the existence of God? Are you afraid we are going to take over the world and then ,God forbid, maybe tell you what to do?

[jclalor 12]

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That's good to hear...It just seems that you often bring up these kids for whom you give care, than use their pain as an excuse to not believe in God.

You're always thowing that in our faces along with the whole bashing babies heads thing...

I don't think I have mentioned my work with children here more than 3 or 4 times at the most over a two year period and it is then in response to people who claim that God performs miracles on a daily basis.

I think Meso nailed it when he said that all because events with very very long odds occur, they do not constitute a miracle.

Why is it that Christians pray all the time for cancers and heart ailments to be cured, yet they would never pray for an amputee to have his leg grow back? The answer is simple: They know that cancers go in remission and sometimes leave the body for ever, and when these very rare events happen then they give God all the credit. We all know that legs do not grow back, ever. and therefore the only prayers they would get would be that God lets them accept their fate.

I do quote Psalm 137:9 ( Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!) on occasion, only because 99% percent of Christians have never read it. They always get the most confused looks on their face. A lot of Christians like to bash the Koran for all the evil it has, yet deny the evil that is in the bible.