Mosque Ground Zero

[nigel99 471]

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I know this has been discussed before, but since the court ruling yesterday the zealots are trying to come up with another way to stop the mosque from being built.

Can someone please explain to me why anyone in their right minds would have a problem with this mosque being built. This mosque being built exactly where they are building it represents everything good about the USA to me. Can anyone who opposes this give me any good reason other than fear why this should be stopped?

Taking into account Bill Von detail that it is some distance away there is no reason at all. Sometimes though graciousness can carry alot of weight. Defiantly sticking to a chosen site regardless of the feeling and protests of a group of people who I imagine are emotionally scarred is not a good form of diplomacy. Would it really hurt to say something along the lines of "We understand the sensitivities and as such we will ensure that our place of worship is x miles from ground zero but please realise that we condemn the actions of those loonies..."?

At the end of the day it is a propaganda war and the muslims have lost it on this issue. guys in our office were talking about the audacity of muslims to build on ground zero today (in the UK).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[christelsabine 1]

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BTW: As an American, I'd be pissed eternally

Fairplay, but at who?

At the smarty-pants in charge for giving the OK for such a building. At such a place. THAT will create mental pressure for centuries.

Perhaps, Mighty Mike has a different view. I have mine on that. It looks like enforcing kinda fine grasp which, in fact is not existing.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[billvon 2,991]

>I happen to think that the mosque should be there and anything that
>disallows it is anathema to freedom. I happen to understand the reaction
>of those traumatized by it.

Agreed on both points. However, understanding someone's feeling is not the same as agreeing with them. It might be understandable that a man who was robbed by a mostly black gang now dislikes blacks. It might even be understandable that he does not want blacks to live in his neighborhood because of this. I would just disagree with his reasoning.

[BillyVance 34]

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>I happen to think that the mosque should be there and anything that
>disallows it is anathema to freedom. I happen to understand the reaction
>of those traumatized by it.

Agreed on both points. However, understanding someone's feeling is not the same as agreeing with them. It might be understandable that a man who was robbed by a mostly black gang now dislikes blacks. It might even be understandable that he does not want blacks to live in his neighborhood because of this. I would just disagree with his reasoning.

And there are certain neighborhoods that I won't venture in, I hope that doesn't make me racist.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

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How do you feel about Christian churches near places that Crusaders slaughtered thousands? Or near Auschwitz?

I get the Crusaders reference - it's a good comparison if you ignore a millenia or two of social evolution - yet still a good analogy for this purpose.

But, can you elaborate your connection of the Nazi slaughter of Jews to fanatical Christianity?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 2]

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>I happen to think that the mosque should be there and anything that
>disallows it is anathema to freedom. I happen to understand the reaction
>of those traumatized by it.

Agreed on both points. However, understanding someone's feeling is not the same as agreeing with them. It might be understandable that a man who was robbed by a mostly black gang now dislikes blacks. It might even be understandable that he does not want blacks to live in his neighborhood because of this. I would just disagree with his reasoning.

And there are certain neighborhoods that I won't venture in, I hope that doesn't make me racist.

Depends. If the main reason is to avoid risk of crime, and the concern is reasonable under the particular circumstances (simple reality being what it is), then it probably doesn't. But if the main reason is because one simply doesn't like being in a neighborhood where mostly "those kind of people" live, then that's more of a racist motive.

[rehmwa 2]

In the US, we have a right to own property, do what we wish to with that property, and not have unnecessary interference with our choices.

If a private individual wants to build a mosque in NY (per local zoning laws, etc) then they should have that right if they own the land to do it on - no matter what their private motivation is for it - even if we'd consider it nefarious or not. that's what "private" means.

also - if individuals want to peacefully protest the action, that's also their right - freedom of speech and all that.

the 1st guy shouldn't be stopped - though he could be out bid for purchase of the property if enough people are motivated (for ANY personal reasons each of those individuals might also have) to join forces and pool funds.

the 2nd crowd shouldn't be silenced either, though for speaking their concerns



now - if the 1st party succeeds, and it turns out to be a lawful place with lawful activities - that's how it should be. If it does end up being a haven for unlawful activity - then that needs to be dealt with at that time. I'm completely against taking action against someone for something we "think" they'll "probably" do in the future. We act based on "actions", not "thought". At least for now - though it lately seems the government is moving the other way.


Short version - if he can afford the property and buys it, it's his to do with as he wishes. regardless of whether others think it's a crappy thing to do. That should be the position of someone that believes in the US version of Freedom.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BillyVance 34]

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>I happen to think that the mosque should be there and anything that
>disallows it is anathema to freedom. I happen to understand the reaction
>of those traumatized by it.

Agreed on both points. However, understanding someone's feeling is not the same as agreeing with them. It might be understandable that a man who was robbed by a mostly black gang now dislikes blacks. It might even be understandable that he does not want blacks to live in his neighborhood because of this. I would just disagree with his reasoning.

And there are certain neighborhoods that I won't venture in, I hope that doesn't make me racist.

Depends. If the main reason is to avoid risk of crime, and the concern is reasonable under the particular circumstances (simple reality being what it is), then it probably doesn't. But if the main reason is because one simply doesn't like being in a neighborhood where mostly "those kind of people" live, then that's more of a racist motive.

Crime rates for sure. I have been in the projects before when I was with a friend visiting his place. As long as I was with him I felt okay.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Amazon 7]

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I truly believe in live and let live until those unwilling to leave me alone to live my life intrude into my life. A few fanatics attacked us not the whole religion.

Who are you and what did you do to Amazon?

Its pretty simple really, America is a melting pot of literaly every ethnic background and race on this planet. Every year the planet becomes more populated with human beings. If we can't learn to live with one another there is no hope of a future in which all ethnic goups can share the best that each of us has to offer humanity.

UNFORTUNATELY this is not a majority view among the people of the world. Intolerance towards me breeds intolerance in me.

[billvon 2,991]

>And there are certain neighborhoods that I won't venture in, I hope
>that doesn't make me racist.

If the criterion you use to determine what neighborhoods to go into is "do they have black people in them" then that would be a racist decision. But I have a feeling you don't judge the safety of neighborhoods purely by the color of the people's skin (or by their religion.)

[Tf15 0]

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Just like they had every right to be pissed at the people of Iraq for 9/11

Do you understand that you have just tossed something else out there to incite discussion on another point? What the hell does the righteousness of the Iraq invasion have to do with the mosque? Little to nothing.

I happen to think that the mosque should be there and anything that disallows it is anathema to freedom. I happen to understand the reaction of those traumatized by it.

I also think that the Iraq carrot does not lead to anything useful but rather obfuscates any legitimate discussion.

My comment about Iraq had nothing to do with the righteousness of the invasion. It had everything to do with blaming the right people. For a long time after the Iraq invasion people blamed Iraq for 9/11. Most knew they had nothing to do with each other. It makes no difference whether or not you supported the Iraq war. The families of the victims of 9/11 have every right to be pissed. They should just be pissed at the right people.

It's not surprising that people blamed Iraq when they are repeatedly told it was so by the President of the USA making his case for invasion.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50679-2004Jun17.html

Three times is enemy action

[BillyVance 34]

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>And there are certain neighborhoods that I won't venture in, I hope
>that doesn't make me racist.

If the criterion you use to determine what neighborhoods to go into is "do they have black people in them" then that would be a racist decision. But I have a feeling you don't judge the safety of neighborhoods purely by the color of the people's skin (or by their religion.)

I sure don't. Heck, there are some rural areas I don't feel safe in, and race has nothing to do with it.

Here's another situation: Nearly 40 years ago, my father sold the first house we lived in as a family to one of the first black families to move into that neighborhood. Today, more than 95% of that neighborhood is black. Over the years, we'd drive through the neighborhood and our old street to check out the old house on the way out of the city when we were going to a northern destination. The area deteriorated slowly. Houses weren't kept up with, vegetation went unchecked (not out of control, just not trimmed regularly), and junk were visible all over. I don't have the crime statistics for that neighborhood, but I sure didn't feel safe, and it's not even among the worst neighborhoods in the city.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[champu 1]

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I have no problem with any religion. My only fear is that building a mosque at ground zero would be twisted into a symbol for extremist, not just Muslims but any terrorist/extremist. Even the best of intentions can be twisted by those who have ulterior motives. This is not to say that it shouldn’t be built, but careful step should be taken to prevent it being used as a symbol for terror/extremism.

So twist it the other way...

Extremists recruit people under the notion that the west has declared war on Islam as a whole. We stand to benefit in the long run by spreading the word with specific examples like this mosque about how that notion is nonsense.

Maybe the hell-bent extremists around today will think of it as a victory in their battle with the west, but we were planning on killing them anyway, so who cares?

[TriGirl 318]

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Intolerance towards me breeds intolerance in me.

Well played. I just found a new quote for my signature file!

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[likearock 2]

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I have no problem with any religion. My only fear is that building a mosque at ground zero would be twisted into a symbol for extremist, not just Muslims but any terrorist/extremist. Even the best of intentions can be twisted by those who have ulterior motives. This is not to say that it shouldn’t be built, but careful step should be taken to prevent it being used as a symbol for terror/extremism.

So twist it the other way...

Extremists recruit people under the notion that the west has declared war on Islam as a whole. We stand to benefit in the long run by spreading the word with specific examples like this mosque about how that notion is nonsense.

Maybe the hell-bent extremists around today will think of it as a victory in their battle with the west, but we were planning on killing them anyway, so who cares?

It's questionable that extremists will point to the establishment of this mosque as a victory in any case. Consider the person who is leading the effort (from http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/opinion/17dalrymple.html):

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Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative is one of America’s leading thinkers of Sufism, the mystical form of Islam, which in terms of goals and outlook couldn’t be farther from the violent Wahhabism of the jihadists. His videos and sermons preach love, the remembrance of God (or “zikr”) and reconciliation. His slightly New Agey rhetoric makes him sound, for better or worse, like a Muslim Deepak Chopra. But in the eyes of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, he is an infidel-loving, grave-worshiping apostate; they no doubt regard him as a legitimate target for assassination.

For such moderate, pluralistic Sufi imams are the front line against the most violent forms of Islam. In the most radical parts of the Muslim world, Sufi leaders risk their lives for their tolerant beliefs, every bit as bravely as American troops on the ground in Baghdad and Kabul do. Sufism is the most pluralistic incarnation of Islam — accessible to the learned and the ignorant, the faithful and nonbelievers — and is thus a uniquely valuable bridge between East and West.

In fact, the jihadists feel so threatened by the peaceful message of this sect that it has been attacked numerous times. Here's one recent incident:

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While the West remains blind to the divisions and distinctions within Islam, the challenge posed by the Sufi vision of the faith is not lost on the extremists. This was shown most violently on July 2, when the Pakistani Taliban organized a double-suicide bombing of the Data Darbar, the largest Sufi shrine in Lahore, Pakistan’s second-largest city. The attack took place on a Thursday night, when the shrine was at its busiest; 42 people were killed and 175 were injured.

No, the propaganda value for the radicals will be much greater if we block the GZ mosque than if we build it.

[champu 1]

VIOLENT AGREEMENT!

[billvon 2,991]

>On the flip side, can you provide me with any good reason why these
> people who lost loved ones because of Muslim nutters and who ar PTSD
>from that awful day shouldn't be pissed off?

Congresswoman Mary Bono Mack (R-CA) is pissed off, although she didn' t lose any loved ones:

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Ground Zero is today an American, historical memorial. It is hollowed ground, where three thousand innocent citizens, from all over the world, were murdered in an attack by Islamic terrorists. The Imam, who wishes to build this mosque on hollowed ground, refuses to state that Hamas is a terrorist organization. He refuses to state that America was an accessory to terror at 9/11. And, he will not disclose the sources of the money or what the real purpose is for building the mosque. By itself, Nancy Pelosi is wrong. But it gets worse, much worse and more bizarre.
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So if only the Imam will state that America was an accessory to the 9/11 attack, this place might get more support - as it is apparently on hollow ground. (over a subway perhaps?)

[turtlespeed 220]

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>On the flip side, can you provide me with any good reason why these
> people who lost loved ones because of Muslim nutters and who ar PTSD
>from that awful day shouldn't be pissed off?

Congresswoman Mary Bono Mack (R-CA) is pissed off, although she didn' t lose any loved ones:

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Ground Zero is today an American, historical memorial. It is hollowed ground, where three thousand innocent citizens, from all over the world, were murdered in an attack by Islamic terrorists. The Imam, who wishes to build this mosque on hollowed ground, refuses to state that Hamas is a terrorist organization. He refuses to state that America was an accessory to terror at 9/11. And, he will not disclose the sources of the money or what the real purpose is for building the mosque. By itself, Nancy Pelosi is wrong. But it gets worse, much worse and more bizarre.
========

So if only the Imam will state that America was an accessory to the 9/11 attack, this place might get more support - as it is apparently on hollow ground. (over a subway perhaps?)

Side step much - why don't you answer the question?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,991]

>why don't you answer the question?

You mean the question - is there any good reason they shouldn't be pissed off? The answer to that is "no." People are sometimes pissed off by irrelevant things, no matter what the reason. Heck, if this place is any indication, people are _often_ pissed off by irrelevant things.

A better question should be - is it reasonable to be pissed off? Would it be reasonable for your neighbors to be pissed off because you're white, just like the priest that abused their child? If so, would you move?

[turtlespeed 220]

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People are sometimes pissed off by irrelevant things, no matter what the reason. Heck, if this place is any indication, people are _often_ pissed off by irrelevant things.

So you are suggesting that the airplane bombing of the trade center is an "irrelevant thing"?

Or are you just deflecting the seriousness to add weight to the following statement.

Nothing like lessening reality to beef up ones argument.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,991]

>So you are suggesting that the airplane bombing of the trade center
>is an "irrelevant thing"?

Nope. Are you comparing the two, and suggesting that a priest molesting a child is an "irrelevant thing?" Shame on you!

9/11 pissed a lot of people (including me) off. It was far from irrelevant. But having Muslims two and a half blocks away from where a terrorist attack happened almost ten years ago _is_ irrelevant to that event. It is simple fearmongering, an attempt by political hacks to manipulate ignorant people's feelings, hoping for an irrational emotional response that might gain their candidate a point or two in the polls.

And judging from some of the responses here, those hacks have found fertile ground indeed.

[turtlespeed 220]

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>So you are suggesting that the airplane bombing of the trade center
>is an "irrelevant thing"?

Nope. Are you comparing the two, and suggesting that a priest molesting a child is an "irrelevant thing?" Shame on you!

9/11 pissed a lot of people (including me) off. It was far from irrelevant. But having Muslims two and a half blocks away from where a terrorist attack happened almost ten years ago _is_ irrelevant to that event. It is simple fearmongering, an attempt by political hacks to manipulate ignorant people's feelings, hoping for an irrational emotional response that might gain their candidate a point or two in the polls.

And judging from some of the responses here, those hacks have found fertile ground indeed.

Why do the anti gun groups want to abolish guns?
Why do the pro gun groups want more access to them?
Why do the anti death penalty groups want to abolish the death penalty?
Why do the pro death penalty groups want to insure the death penalty?
Why do the anti abortionists want to abolish abortions?
Why do the pro abortionists want to keep abortions legal?

It's all the same reason. Which groups do you belong to?

It's all the same reason.

It's about minimizing the possibility that the letting the groups continue will cost lives in the future.

The same goes for those that oppose the mosque at ground zero.


Tell us, what would you do if it is found out that this mosque you are supporting has a hidden terrorist cell in it?

What would you do if it was found out AFTER the attrocity was already committed?

Let me guess, you would defend your position? No?
Oh, well then by all means the only other thing to do is to recant and apologize, right?

Would you write a letter of apology to every victim?

Could it be that it is better to not give that situation a chance?

Again . . . Which group do you support? Anti Gun, Pro-gun, anti abort, pro abort, anti death penalty, or pro death penalty?

It's all the same reasoning.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Skyrad 0]

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>On the flip side, can you provide me with any good reason why these
> people who lost loved ones because of Muslim nutters and who ar PTSD
>from that awful day shouldn't be pissed off?

Congresswoman Mary Bono Mack (R-CA) is pissed off, although she didn' t lose any loved ones:

========
Ground Zero is today an American, historical memorial. It is hollowed ground, where three thousand innocent citizens, from all over the world, were murdered in an attack by Islamic terrorists. The Imam, who wishes to build this mosque on hollowed ground, refuses to state that Hamas is a terrorist organization. He refuses to state that America was an accessory to terror at 9/11. And, he will not disclose the sources of the money or what the real purpose is for building the mosque. By itself, Nancy Pelosi is wrong. But it gets worse, much worse and more bizarre.
========

So if only the Imam will state that America was an accessory to the 9/11 attack, this place might get more support - as it is apparently on hollow ground. (over a subway perhaps?)

Chuckles quitely

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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I know this has been discussed before, but since the court ruling yesterday the zealots are trying to come up with another way to stop the mosque from being built.

Can someone please explain to me why anyone in their right minds would have a problem with this mosque being built. This mosque being built exactly where they are building it represents everything good about the USA to me. Can anyone who opposes this give me any good reason other than fear why this should be stopped?

Taking into account Bill Von detail that it is some distance away there is no reason at all. Sometimes though graciousness can carry alot of weight. Defiantly sticking to a chosen site regardless of the feeling and protests of a group of people who I imagine are emotionally scarred is not a good form of diplomacy. Would it really hurt to say something along the lines of "We understand the sensitivities and as such we will ensure that our place of worship is x miles from ground zero but please realise that we condemn the actions of those loonies..."?

At the end of the day it is a propaganda war and the muslims have lost it on this issue. guys in our office were talking about the audacity of muslims to build on ground zero today (in the UK).

Should in Christians Texas have to appologies for the Christians that killed Federal Agents at Wako if they want to build a Church a mile down the road?

Secondly, if this Mosque is not built then what next? Should the Manhatten Mosque down the road that has been there since 1970 be closed? Pulled down? Burnt??? Where does it stop Kristallnacht?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,489]

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Tell us, what would you do if it is found out that this mosque you are supporting has a hidden terrorist cell in it?

What would you do if it was found out AFTER the attrocity was already committed?

Let me guess, you would defend your position? No?
Oh, well then by all means the only other thing to do is to recant and apologize, right?

Would you write a letter of apology to every victim?

Could it be that it is better to not give that situation a chance?

So you want to stop any mosque being built because of the possibility that it might be linked to terror in the future?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?