Jihadi Meetingplace shut Down in Germany; 9/11 Conspirators Gathered There

[Darius11 12]

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This will sound even stranger to you. I have actually met very FEW Muslims that have left a negative impression on me. But I think that is because the ones that I have met on a personal level are here in the US and at least the ones that I have met are trying to fit into this country.

The ones you have met you know on a personal level and not a head line. Ever think tht might be the case as well?

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The negative I see comes from the leaders of Muslim States.

agreed on most and yes Amazon i include Iran as one of the bad ones as well.
but that's the government.

Can you see how we could be looked at as warmongers and murders if the world was to judge us on what GWB did?

and is it fair to judge a massive group of people by the actions of there leaders?

also if its fair to judge the people, who holds more responsibility? the people free to vote in a democracy or the people who if they disagree with the government actions they will be killed?

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I believe that the vast majority of the Muslim world does see us as the enemy and will stop at nothing to see this country destroyed.

I think the vast majority of people want the same things. a chance to live grow, nd the sme for ther children.

What do you think there motivtion is for the ones that hate us?

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That's not true. That's so not true it is laughable. If you want to know my family tree send me a PM. lol

Rally what is it that a muslim familly wants thats so diffrent then an american one?

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Lets see, the 9/11 hijackers

The Hijackers were mostly Saudi and from a section of Islam that looks at me in the same manner that it views any thing that is different(infidel).

So i hate them as much as you (I grew up in Long Island and went to the city often), so i hate being compared to such animals just because i am Muslim.
Oddly enough to me and the Muslims i know we viewed them as much of a Muslim as you would view a child raping priests as a Christan.

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Lets see, the 9/11 hijackers came here, drank alcohol, dated western women, went to porn shops....acted just like the rest of us. Then they got on some planes and committed one of the most horrible acts of murder in the history of mankind

yes they were spies in this country who wanted to kill us they had a plan. That does not make every muslim here on a plan to take over.

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The idiot that tried to blow up Times Square recently... he was living the western life. Never would have though that he was a terrorist.

They guys that plotted to blow up the 1/2/3 subway lines in NYC last year (which I take too and from work every morning getting off at Penn Station), lived worked and played here.

There will always be people who do bad things for many different reasons grouping them is simplifying something that should not be simplified.

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Then you have this Mosque by the WTC site. Why wont they open their books and show where the 100 million is coming from to build it

I have no idea, but what do you think there hiding?

It is a Mosque so i have a feelingthe money came from Muslims and acording to you logc that makes it already wrong.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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No. I want people in the USA to be treated the way the USA should treat people.
True ethics is more about leading, not following.

100 Percent agree. I find it lame when we mention horrible actions of others to excuse horrible actions we have taken or want to take.

I don't get that at all.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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I wrote a post last year that called attention to some Iraqi Imams who were consistently outspoken against violence, all the way up until they were killed by extremists themselves. ***

this is why you dont see the muslim community policing themselves like some say they should, they have family that would pay the price - the whackjobs will kill muslims who they deem to not be muslim enough without a second thought.

I got curious and read some of the koran, I found it to be a book of intolerance, and it has a decidedly do not forgive message, I was told that since I read a translated book that I didnt get the whole message - but with what I did read I wonder how someone gets a religion of peace from it... the author had definate anger issues coupled with a huge ego.

Roy

Its not a religion of peace, but that was the message that was preached i think mainly because we had Rednecks killing anyone that looked brown right after 9-11. Most were Hindus who have hated Islam longer then the rednecks knew about it.


Islam is about Justice. There can be no peace without Justice. The turn the other cheek belief is christian one. We believe there can only be an abuser if the abused take no action.
Who must be punished is the person who originally broke the peace.

For exs. if you throw a rock at me I should throw a bolder on you.
idea is i am minding my own business your the problem your the one who threw the first rock therefore you are the one who is not fit for society not the one who was minding there own business. the idea is if i just sit there and allow you to abuse me you will abuse others therefore i am enabling you to keep throwing rocks because i just say thank you may i have another.

This is my understanding of it. I believe it fits better for the humane condition. However i do think turning the other cheek is the only way the world will find ultimate peace. Unfortunately i think turning the other cheek is far far from humane nature. Which means i also belive we will never live in a world without war.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,991]

>For exs. if you throw a rock at me I should throw a bolder on you.

Which gives them the justification for killing your family; and you the justification for wiping out their city. There is no end to that escalation. (Which, of course, is exactly what's happening today in the Middle East.)

[Darius11 12]

So what should happen to the people throwing rocks?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 2,991]

>So what should happen to the people throwing rocks?

Arrest them. If they hurt anyone doing it, put them in jail. That is a far better response than throwing a bigger rock. (Or firing rockets into a city, or flying a 767 into a building.)

[Darius11 12]

Your view is narrowed to the life we have here.

What can one do when there is no way to take such actions when the rule of law is simply not based on justice?

You think you should call the sheriff? my point is what if there is no sheriff.

The turn your cheek idea the idea that we were discussing as a philosophy did not say turn the other cheek and call your local police department.

Surly you realized we are discussing philosophy and not choosing between vigilantism or the rule of law?

The choice is to do nothing (turn the other cheek) or to strike the person who has broken the peace with enough force to stop him from ever victimizing anyone else.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[shropshire 0]

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this is why you dont see the muslim community policing themselves like some say they should....

This is the biggest load of bollocks and gets spouted so much in SC .......

"They" - (who ever They are) Police their comunity NO different from the way we do ... We don't police our terrorists (we don't police any of the crimal classes) - We get the POLICE to do so.....

When was the last time that you arrested a terrorist/murdere/theif etc..?

So what do you actually mean? What do you want the general population of Muslims/Yanks/Brits or any other group to ACTUALLY do?

"They should police their terrorists" - is THE most idiotic statement ever commited to the Interweb

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

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Yeah, except "shutting down mosques with direct ties to terrorism" is really Code for "shutting down all mosques, and not allowing any new ones."

That's only the code used by liberals to alter the meaning of words from conservatives in order to create a strawman argument with which to bash them.

It's the same way when a conservative talks about stopping illegal immigration, and the liberals then accuse them of being bigots who are opposed to all immigrants.

Really, you guys look pathetic playing that unseemly switcharoo game.

When I say "mosques with ties to terrorism", I'm only talking about mosques with ties to terrorism. That seems like a very simple concept to me. But it's not good enough for liberals, because there's nothing there they can disagree with. So they have to play games and invent a way to attack you, by making it look like you're a racist who is against all "brown skin" people and all mosques.

Pathetic.

You guys should spend more time fighting our true enemies, instead of fighting people just because they're conservatives.

Closing down Mosques (or any other buildings) that are used by terrorists as meeting places is a bad idea. If you close them they simply will meet elsewhere. Much better to infiltrate and use as an opportunity to gather information to disrupt their operations.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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The clear implication being, that all mosques should be presumed to be meeting-places for terrorists.

They like to build Mosques on conquered ground. its a slap in the face to build one by the WTC.

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Yeah, except "shutting down mosques with direct ties to terrorism" is really Code for "shutting down all mosques,

If they have affiliations with Terror groups, they should be shut down. I believe that the group in NYC has a leader that supports known terror groups. Why should he be allowed to preach terror here in the U.S.?

If muslims want a good name for their religion then they need to stand up to these freaking terrorists and do something about it. Clean out their own garbage.

I hate to say this, but we as a country are to stupid to see when we are being invaded, and yes we are being invaded.

Judging Muslims on the basis of some terrorists is like judging Christians onthe basis of the Westboro Baptist Church and the Davidians. Cop on.

As for being invaded, what Native american tribe do you belong to?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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That's no more valid than condemning Christians for the crimes Catholic priests commit - and no more valid than condemning skydivers for the criminals in their midst. (Who, I suspect, you have never made any effort to stop.)

If a Catholic Priest stood up and said "Kill all the Jews" that priest would be excommunicated. Not that Catholics are perfect and have never done any wrong. Just saying they wouldnt allow that type of talk now days. Plus they are two busy screwing little boys to worry about anything else right now.

Seeing as Pope Benedict XVI the supreme moralathority for the Catholic Church is a former member of the Hitler Youth; and the Catholic church is riddled with examples of collaboration and support for the Nazis I find you assertation dubious.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Well I would hope that they baptist church would stand up and say something.

Look at the Mormons. They catch a lot of crap, but have made an effort to distance themselves from those that still practice certain things.

I would like to see Muslims start publicly and LOUDLY distancing themselves from the Fundamentalists.

The vast majority of Muslims are and do publicly and loudly distance themselves from extremists (Funadmentalists by definition believe in the fundamentals of a religion and murder is not a fundamental belieif of Islam (look up the five pillars of Islam these are the fundamentals of Islam). The problem is that the media is not interested in Muslims against terrorists it doesn't sell. It doesn't mean that it isn't happening though.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Bill. I do not doubt those things were said by those people. But when do they say them? AFTER a horrible attack and the lost lives? What are they doing in the mean time? Where are the anti fundamentalist marches? Where are the pissed off Millions of good Muslims when things aren't in the news? What is the Muslims community doing to stop their own from killing innocent people?

Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean its not happeneing.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/11/26/20000-muslims-demonstrate-against-terror.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6279416.stm

http://syedmdasadullah.blogspot.com/2010/06/muslim-women-stage-march-against.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10900478

http://www.danielpipes.org/1775/moderate-muslims-march-in-phoenix

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/indian-muslims-unite-against-terror-hold-peace-march/80002-3.html

http://www.aimislam.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4020-march-against-wahhabi-terrorism/

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/03/free-muslims-march-against-terror

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.freemuslims.org/

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

http://www.maat.r8.org/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3586703.stm

http://www.int-review.org/terr42a.html

http://www.awesomelibrary.org/Muslims.html

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Muslims are not collectivly responsible for the acts of murder committed by twisted individuals any more than Christians are for the muders comitted during the Crusades or any more than Americans are for the actions of some twisted individuals who disgraced their uniforms and country by committing war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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The negative I see comes from the leaders of Muslim States. It comes from the likes of Bin Laden and the Taliban. It comes from the way that countries like Pakistan cant even be straight with us when they say they are our allies and allow murders to run free within their borders. It comes from when Muslim countries allow terrorist groups to train and plan attacks with no regard for the lives of my family and friends and my beliefs.

Firstly I would argure that there is no truely Muslim states, nationalism take prescedence in every case. The Arab countries are run by totalitarian regimes that are propt up by the USA and UK.
As for Pakistan, you are woefully misinformed, pakistan is currently in a state of virtual civil war (not so virtual in some areas) the Pakistani Army has lost thousands of men fighting the extremists and Taliban the Presidents wife was even murdered by them. As for the Taliban lets not forget who trained them, supplied them and fundeded them the USA via the ISA of Pakistan. The USA was very happy to support the twisted theology of Wahibisim. Like a idiot who buys a tiger cub because its cute and fluffy and then is shocked when it grow up and turns on them. Obviously you have no idea at what is going on in Pakistan. Karachi is currently locked down following a terrorist assisnation.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/metropolitan/04-karachi-lockdown-remains-qs-01

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Would you be good with muslims being treated the same here in the USA as christians or others are treated in Islamic countries?

Good point Jeannie. I can guarantee you that if we destroyed Mecca they woudnt let us build a Church a few blocks away.

Well, Saudi Arabia's laws are far different than ours and much less tolerant.

I am a HUGE fan of live and let live.... trouble is.. there are WAY too many people not willing to let me live my life as I see fit... in the Kindom of SAUD... ( yeah been there ... it sucked donkey balls) and in this country we have a large segment of the population that only pays lip service to those catchie little buzzwords of religious tolerance... equality for all male and female... and on and on..

As well you know Jeannie Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian regime which uses it own perverted brand of Islam to support it, even bloody Al Queida doesn't recognize it as a Muslim state.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[pirana 0]

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Again, I hate their philosophy. But where do you draw the line? KKK, radical muslims, PETA, NRA?

When their speech is part of a conspiracy to commit terror, or an urge for others to do so. Applies to everybody, including the groups you listed.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Then we have to agree to disagree.

GADS! It's a post in pithy-motivational-poster speak.

You do not need to "agree to disagree." Very redundant. If you disagree - THAT'S IT! There is no requirement that you agree that you disagree when it is obvious that you disagree.

My observation is that when a person uses that silly phrase they are still flailing about for one last stab at appearing to be superior; as if some goofy middle-management buzzphrase somehow puts them on the high road.

"Yes, our conversation is at an impasse, and we obviously are not going to come to agreement; however, I am going to make the bold move to agree we disagree. Knight me."

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[shropshire 0]

I don't agree that we don't need to agree or disagree ....

..... is this a 5 minute argument or the full 1/2 hour?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jakee 1,489]

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There you go, proving my own point. As soon as you say "...you meant...", then you're wrong. You don't know what I meant - only I do. And my comment was simply about another mosque, and did not imply that it already has ties to terrorism.

No, but you clearly stated that it will have ties to terrorism once it is opened.

How do you know?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[D22369 0]

this is why you dont see the muslim community policing themselves like some say they should....

This is the biggest load of bollocks and gets spouted so much in SC

really? so are you saying if they speak out against the violent idiots that they have nothing to fear? - I hope your merely trying to yank some chains with that statement or that I am misunderstanding you.



"They" - (who ever They are) Police their comunity NO different from the way we do ... We don't police our terrorists (we don't police any of the crimal classes) - We get the POLICE to do so.....

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***

we have the luxury of doing that, they do not - they have people with thinking so twisted that they will not only kill you for speaking against "their" islam, they will kill your family and everyone that gets into thier way to do so.


When was the last time that you arrested a terrorist/murdere/theif etc..?

20 years ago I restrained a thief that was breaking into our car till the police showed up and made the arrest - good enough? *(granted it was nearly a quarter century ago... but in my world it doesnt occur very often)
If I found myself in a position where I could take down a terrorist or a murderer I like to think I would react no differently than I did with that thieving bastard, however - if it was against an organization with a reputation of extreme violence It would be a very limited set of circumstances that would make me put my son at risk. Call me a coward for that, I can completely understand those who fly under the radar to protect family


So what do you actually mean? What do you want the general population of Muslims/Yanks/Brits or any other group to ACTUALLY do? ***

I can understand why overall they dont speak out against the violence, its one thing to do something that is likely to lead to your death, its another to put your loved ones in the gunsights of some stupid fucker with the mentality out of the stone age -

And why are you asking me? this is what I wrote - ***
this is why you dont see the muslim community policing themselves like some say they should....


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[pirana 0]

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I don't agree that we don't need to agree or disagree ....

..... is this a 5 minute argument or the full 1/2 hour?

Depends. If the conversation occurs in a place that thrives on cutsie phrases and activities like,

Let's agree to disagree
Let's go for the low hanging fruit
Let's create a space for that conversation
Any utterance of the word synergy
Any gathering that includes a motivational speaker
Any conversation that ends in "Let's do lunch." (Be especially wary if the person does that little pulling the trigger thing with their hand - and run like hell if they make the cute little noise at the same time),

. . . it could take a long time to do anything; even if anything is nothing at all.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[christelsabine 1]

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Good riddance.

Hamburg Mosque Closed

mh
.

Yep. The right action. I do hope not the last, if necessary.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[champu 1]

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I don't agree that we don't need to agree or disagree ....

..... is this a 5 minute argument or the full 1/2 hour?

I told you once.

[turtlespeed 220]

Damn dude . . . you trying to give Lucky a run for his money?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Skyrad 0]

Japan has not forgotten what the Americans did to it at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, nor have the Americans forgiven it for Pearl Harbor. It is not necessary to forget and forgive; it is merely necessary to act in a civilized fashion and internalize the fact that there is always a time to rend and a time to sew. David Ben-Gurion and Moshe Sharett understood this as well: It was not merely for the sake of the reparation payments that they decided to turn over a new leaf in Israel's relations with Germany.

But nevertheless, there is something about America, and there is an extra something about New York. Last week, a public committee decided unanimously to permit a large Islamic center, which will include a mosque, to be built adjacent to Ground Zero. The voices of those who were opposed, who compared the initiative to allowing an idol in the Temple, were drowned out by the voices of those who supported it.

There is nothing more annoying than the assertion that "all Jews are the same," or alternatively, "all Zionists are the same." Zionism, like Judaism, was never all cut from the same cloth, or forged of the same spirit, and in recent generations, these differences have become even more pronounced. Like every movement for national self-determination, Zionism too has beautiful aspects as well as some rather ugly ones. Everyone who identifies with it chooses the way he wishes it to look.

And sometimes, we do what is hateful to us to 1.5 billion Muslims as well. Like us, they are not all cut from the same cloth, nor do they all think the same way. Not all of them are members of the Taliban or Al-Qaida; most of them are horrified at the sight of towers collapsing on those inside them, or noses or ears that have been cut off and little girls' eyes that have been gouged out on the way to school.

Sharif El-Gamal, for example, who initiated the plan for the Islamic center near Ground Zero, represents hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers - doctors and lawyers, teachers and students, policemen and firemen - who consider Mohammed their prophet. He himself belongs to the Jewish community center on Manhattan's Upper East Side. "My sister-in-law is Jewish," he says, "and this year, I was blessed with my first Jewish niece."

It is not clear what gremlin got into Abraham Foxman, head of the Anti-Defamation League, who was at the forefront of those denouncing the plan as a "provocation." Why be in such a hurry to reject a building whose founders say it is intended to promote interfaith dialogue? After all, they promised that "extremism will have no place here."

Any responsible person must reach out to every moderate, while at the same time distancing and condemning every extremist. Those who conflate people of good intentions with those of evil intentions, whether by commission or omission, will return the world to a state of chaos and lead it to Sodom.

That is Europe's mistake: It is pushing Turkey into Iran's arms. That is also the mistake being made by former Likud prime minister Yitzhak Shamir's successors, who continue chanting that "the sea is the same sea and the Arabs are the same Arabs" - which, of course, is akin to other abominable statements like "all Muslims are the same."

Perhaps it is the Jews who sometimes constitute the best proof that there is no inoculation against anti-Semitism.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-mosque-in-the-temple-1.307734

A very good article written by a Jewish man in an Israeli Paper about the Mosque near(ish) 'ground zero'

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca