status of CC in Chicago?

[kallend 2,106]

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I had a skydiver friend murdered, one whom I thought you knew. I don't know if a handgun would have saved him, but it wouldn't have hurt.

Blues,
Dave

You don't know that it wouldn't have hurt any more than you know it might have helped. People do get shot with their own guns - even cops who, we assume, are well trained.

And that would have hurt how...he'd be more dead?

Blues,
Dave

You're assuming he made it to the day of his murder.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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Yep, goes to show that you can't draw any conclusion from one year of data - particularly you can't conclude that Dallas or Houston is safer than Chicago on account of CCW.

Then why did you post only one year of data yourself?
Then why did you try to imply that CCW cities are more dangerous by bringing up Dallas?

Answer: Because you like to play games and try and fool people, instead of just speaking the plain truth as you know it.

[kallend 2,106]

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Yep, goes to show that you can't draw any conclusion from one year of data - particularly you can't conclude that Dallas or Houston is safer than Chicago on account of CCW.

Then why did you post only one year of data yourself?
Then why did you try to imply that CCW cities are more dangerous by bringing up Dallas?

Answer: To illustrate the stupidity of JohnRich trying to make a claim based on 1 year of data.

I actually made no such claim. What I wrote was "Dallas's homicide rate doesn't look so great."

Your imagination filled in the rest.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhaig 0]

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Yep, goes to show that you can't draw any conclusion from one year of data - particularly you can't conclude that Dallas or Houston is safer than Chicago on account of CCW.

Then why did you post only one year of data yourself?
Then why did you try to imply that CCW cities are more dangerous by bringing up Dallas?

Answer: To illustrate the stupidity of JohnRich trying to make a claim based on 1 year of data.

I actually made no such claim. What I wrote was "Dallas's homicide rate doesn't look so great."

Your imagination filled in the rest.

perhaps it was aided by your past arguments that concealed carry doesn't reduce violent crime. You point us to history so often, yet you seem to forget your own.

--
Rob

[Kennedy 0]

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Of course, there are lots of places where people can't legally carry that have much lower homicide rates than Texas or Florida or Louisiana. Most of the rest of the western world outside of the USA. Funny how that is.

You really can't talk about guns without constantly reframing the debate, can you? First it's guns won't protect you. Then it's you'll be killed with your own gun. Now it's see how high USA's crime rate is. Come on professor. Can you answer a person's reasonable response before moving to your next Brady talking point. I swear you must follow their press releases point for point sometimes.

You still haven't addressed the fact that for the number of firearms in this coutry, the number of accidental firearm deaths are so low as to be statistically insignificant. (or deaths per rounds fired, or deaths per ccw, or any other measure you can think of)

You still haven't addressed the number of crime stopped or prevented each year by a "defensive gun use."

And we've been over international rates, how they ignore culture and history, and how there and places with more and less guns, and each category has countries with more and less crime. But if, as you say, the US is that much more violent than other places, why would you deny citizens an effective tool for self defense?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

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Nice the way you CHERRY PICK 2003 data.

From the FBI UCR 2005

HOMICIDE rates per 100,000 inhabitants:

Chicago 15.6
Dallas 16.8
Houston 16.3

That's funny how you accuse me of cherry-picking, when all I did was reference a web site, and then you turn right around and cherry-pick your own year for data. Ha!

A few years ago Chicago had a nice drop in murders and he couldn't stop writing about it. Then it reverted back to its norm and he's been rather silent about it.

and yet, he loves to make the 'cherry picking' charge.

[kelpdiver 2]

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In MY perception of risk, having to use a gun to deal with a thug is so far down the list of likely threats to life and limb as to be totally off the radar, and the cost/benefit ratio of carrying a gun and maintaining proficiency with it is a high cost for extremely marginal benefit.

Mine have had virtually no costs associated with them. The only benefits to date have been entertainment. However, it is a tool available to me should circumstances ever dictate.

[mnealtx 0]

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Dallas's homicide rate doesn't look so great. I guess they don't have CC in Dallas.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but contrary to your evident belief, a concealed weapon is not a magic talisman that prevents all crime.

305 Chicago homicides YTD.

106 Dallas homicides YTD.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Nice the way you CHERRY PICK 2003 data.

Nice the way you CHERRY PICK 2005 data.

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From the FBI UCR 2005

HOMICIDE rates per 100,000 inhabitants:

Chicago 15.6
Dallas 16.8
Houston 16.3

From the FBI UCR 2008 (last full year reported)

HOMICIDE rates per 100,000 inhabitants:

Chicago 18.02
Dallas 13.32
Houston 13.13

You were saying?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,106]

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Nice the way you CHERRY PICK 2003 data.

Nice the way you CHERRY PICK 2005 data.

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From the FBI UCR 2005

HOMICIDE rates per 100,000 inhabitants:

Chicago 15.6
Dallas 16.8
Houston 16.3

From the FBI UCR 2008 (last full year reported)

HOMICIDE rates per 100,000 inhabitants:

Chicago 18.02
Dallas 13.32
Houston 13.13

You were saying?

Thank you for making my point that CC appears to have no discernible impact on homicide rate in US cities, which varies tremendously from year to year both in US cities with CC and in US cities without. Some years Dallas or Houston wins, some years they lose. ALL of them are worse than similar sized cities in the rest of the industrialized western world.

May I remind you that it was not me that suggested CC impacts crime either way, it was Twardo who made the claim that it did (post #35 of THIS THREAD, which, as usual, you appear not to have bothered to read properly.)

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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CC appears to have no discernible impact on homicide rate in US cities

Then there's no reason not to allow it, since there's no harmful effect caused by it, and it allows some people to protect themselves.

Would you also agree, just like your statement above, that gun ownership has no discernible impact on crime rates?

[kallend 2,106]

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CC appears to have no discernible impact on homicide rate in US cities

Then there's no reason not to allow it, since there's no harmful effect caused by it, .

Where did I claim that there was? Your imagination is just amazing.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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CC appears to have no discernible impact on homicide rate in US cities

Then there's no reason not to allow it, since there's no harmful effect caused by it, .

Where did I claim that there was? Your imagination is just amazing.

I didn't claim you did. I simply made an independent statement.

Now, try answering this question, which you ignored:

Would you also agree, just like your statement above, that gun ownership has no discernible impact on crime rates?

[livendive 8]

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Thank you for making my point that CC appears to have no discernible impact on homicide rate in US cities, which varies tremendously from year to year both in US cities with CC and in US cities without.

It may come as a surprise to some that I am an individual, not an entire city. I don’t really care if my carrying concealed has little or no impact on the crime rate of my city. What I care about is whether it affects the outcome of crimes involving me. I doubt that anyone has compiled statistics on what percentage of murder victims were legally carrying concealed at the time of their death, but my perception is that legally and responsibly carrying concealed further reduces the already low chance that I’ll become a murder victim. I don’t really care what the murder rate is in Chicago, or Dallas, except when I or my loved ones are visiting there. I do care very much about keeping my personal murder rate somewhere south of one each year.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Kennedy 0]

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Thank you for making my point that CC appears to have no discernible impact on homicide rate in US cities, which varies tremendously from year to year both in US cities with CC and in US cities without. Some years Dallas or Houston wins, some years they lose. ALL of them are worse than similar sized cities in the rest of the industrialized western world.

So now the number for three cities covering only three years is enough for you to decide that concealed carry has no effect on murder rates? Wow, you used to support statistically significant analysis covering a large number of locations and a large number years. I guess you gave up o that when someone did that and you didn't like he numbers they came up with.

So, direct question: do support concealed carry rights across the US? If not, why not?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[futuredivot 0]

Wow, so let's narrow the data down to usable levels? I can do that. In July 2010 I was in Chicago twice-both times I was armed, neither time was I a victim. Now granted my firearm is only one of the tools, along with situational awareness an avoidance, that I use to keep me safe. It wasn't even a tool that was actively used. But it IS a tool that I choose not to let you and people that share your misguided beliefs deprive me of. So, Divot data-1 fat man with a handgun that he has trained to use effectively=1 fat man that wasn't killed in Chicago X 2. That is the only data point that I consider critical.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[kallend 2,106]

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Thank you for making my point that CC appears to have no discernible impact on homicide rate in US cities, which varies tremendously from year to year both in US cities with CC and in US cities without. Some years Dallas or Houston wins, some years they lose. ALL of them are worse than similar sized cities in the rest of the industrialized western world.

So now the number for three cities covering only three years is enough for you to decide that concealed carry has no effect on murder rates?

Having wee bit of a comprehension problem there?

I am disputing Twardo's assertion that CC DOES have an effect. There is no statistically valid evidence that it does. In fact, one can cherry pick examples either way in the US, and comparison of homicide rates with the rest of the western industrialized world doesn't put the US with its CC laws in a good light at all.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,106]

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Wow, so let's narrow the data down to usable levels? I can do that. In July 2010 I was in Chicago twice-both times I was armed,

I hope you weren't breaking any laws by doing that.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Having wee bit of a comprehension problem there?

I am disputing Twardo's assertion that CC DOES have an effect. There is no statistically valid evidence that it does.

Other than the prison study sponsored by the NIJ, you mean?

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In fact, one can cherry pick examples either way in the US, and comparison of homicide rates with the rest of the western industrialized world doesn't put the US with its CC laws in a good light at all.

Speaking of 'statistically valid evidence', how about providing some showing that CC laws have anything to do with the homicide rates?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,106]

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Having wee bit of a comprehension problem there?

I am disputing Twardo's assertion that CC DOES have an effect. There is no statistically valid evidence that it does.

Other than the prison study sponsored by the NIJ, you mean?

Lame.

If convicted felons always tell the truth, why did so many of them plead "not guilty"?

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Speaking of 'statistically valid evidence', how about providing some showing that CC laws have anything to do with the homicide rates?

We do know that gun ownership rates correlate with probability of being a gunshot victim, and that gun purchase correlates with subsequently being a homicide victim.

The FLAW in the arguments you folks are using is to ASSume that there is no downside to CC. There are several:

Even experienced professionals get shot with their own guns from time to time.

Some 300,000 guns thefts occur each year. Every gun stolen from a "law abiding citizen" becomes a gun in the possession of a criminal.

You are more likely to be shot by a friend or family member than by a stranger.

Gun ownership rates correlate with probability of being a gunshot homicide victim (Harvard study).

The following CC states have homicide rates higher than IL or WI:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Louisiana (much higher)
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
Tennessee
Texas

And none of them have a city as big as Chicago.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhaig 0]

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Even experienced professionals get shot with their own guns from time to time.

a few, from time to time. vs the many thousand to million defensive gun uses each year (depending who's study you believe)

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Some 300,000 guns thefts occur each year. Every gun stolen from a "law abiding citizen" becomes a gun in the possession of a criminal.

the argument of gun banners. are you discussing banning guns or the downsides of concealed carry. This has nothing to do with CC. Now you're a gun banner? (you've always disavowed it before)

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You are more likely to be shot by a friend or family member than by a stranger.

and you're more likely to be in a car accident within 5 miles of your home. Because you spend all your time there. Correlation does not equal causality.

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Gun ownership rates correlate with probability of being a gunshot homicide victim (Harvard study).

haven't read that one, but might suggest that people living in more dangerous neighborhoods are more likely to own a gun.

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The following CC states have homicide rates higher than IL or WI:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Louisiana (much higher)
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
Tennessee
Texas

And none of them have a city as big as Chicago.

so now you're broadening the scope of the statistics being quoted because the city-localized stats were sliding the wrong way for you?

--
Rob

[kallend 2,106]

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so now you're broadening the scope of the statistics being quoted because the city-localized stats were sliding the wrong way for you?

CC laws go by state.

If you want largish cities, Memphis, Baltimore, New Orleans and Philadelphia all have higher homicide rates than Chicago or Milwaukee.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If convicted felons always tell the truth, why did so many of them plead "not guilty"?

Is that one of the duh questions?

Because they get sentenced to prison for pleading guilty. Pleading "not" gives them a chance of getting off. A rather obvious incentive to lie, not present in answering questions about their motivations.

[mnealtx 0]

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Having wee bit of a comprehension problem there?

I am disputing Twardo's assertion that CC DOES have an effect. There is no statistically valid evidence that it does.

Other than the prison study sponsored by the NIJ, you mean?

Lame.

If convicted felons always tell the truth, why did so many of them plead "not guilty"?

Speaking of lame, you don't seem to have a problem believing felons when they talk about how they got their illegal guns.

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Speaking of 'statistically valid evidence', how about providing some showing that CC laws have anything to do with the homicide rates?

We do know that gun ownership rates correlate with probability of being a gunshot victim, and that gun purchase correlates with subsequently being a homicide victim.

So, you can show us proof of that, then - amizing how there's never any links when you make these claims.

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The FLAW in the arguments you folks are using is to ASSume that there is no downside to CC.

The FLAW in your argument is that you ASSume we think that having a gun will magically prevent all crime.

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Even experienced professionals get shot with their own guns from time to time.

Nobody has said they didn't.

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Some 300,000 guns thefts occur each year. Every gun stolen from a "law abiding citizen" becomes a gun in the possession of a criminal.

These would be the crimnals that you believe when they say where they got their gun from, but not when they say that they'd avoid someone they knew was armed, yes?

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You are more likely to be shot by a friend or family member than by a stranger.

Sounds like Kellerman's "43 times" bullcrap.

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Gun ownership rates correlate with probability of being a gunshot homicide victim (Harvard study).

And non-ownership correlates with a much higher chance of being injured during an encounter (several studies by Lott, Kleck, etc).

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The following CC states have homicide rates higher than IL or WI:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Louisiana (much higher)
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
Tennessee
Texas

And none of them have a city as big as Chicago.

Big fucking deal - now show the crime is due to the CCW laws.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,106]

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The following CC states have homicide rates higher than IL or WI:

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Louisiana (much higher)
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
Tennessee
Texas

And none of them have a city as big as Chicago.

Big fucking deal - now show the crime is due to the CCW laws.

Didn't ever claim it was - you sure are being deliberately obtuse or are a poor reader.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.