labrys 0 #51 August 23, 2010 QuoteNot necessarily, our enemy is predominantly Muslim and it is a counterfeit. Therefore, this could be construed as legitimate training. Ron... that's so off the wall bullshit and paranoid you either have to be joking or should be seeking help from a mental health professional. Seriously.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #52 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote"Not only a belief, it is a comfort. The guy at the other end of the muzzle is not only poor, he is the declared enemy. It is my job to take him out. " WTF??? I don’t believe in any religion. But I know for sure as a Christian you should forgive to your enemies not to shoot them!!! A true Christian (as far as I understand) shouldn’t have a job to kill anyone. Who would Jesus shoot? There are two types of people: -Intelligent with common sense. -Religious with dogma Romans 13 Be Subject to Government 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. I'm surprised you have never seen this before. People who join the military are subject to the governing authority. If the government declares an enemy and orders me to kill him, I am obligated to obey. yeah... when our pastor gave a sermon on Romans 13 a few weeks ago I had to stop him in the hall and discuss it with him "never question the rule of law and be subject to the authority of the government" was his message. I suggested that if it were not for some men 235 years ago (this sermon was early July) that decided not to place themselves subject to the authority of the government, that he wouldn't likely have been allowed to start this church last year. I got the 50m backpedal... "well, there are exceptions... uh... I...". Yeah, but most of the founding fathers were deists, not christians, so they probably didn't care at all about Romans 13.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #53 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuoteNot necessarily, our enemy is predominantly Muslim and it is a counterfeit. Therefore, this could be construed as legitimate training. Ron... that's so off the wall bullshit and paranoid you either have to be joking or should be seeking help from a mental health professional. Seriously. I refer you to my post #22.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KidWicked 0 #54 August 23, 2010 QuoteMuslim soldiers in the US ARMY, oh yes, one tossed a grenade into a tent where his fellow soldiers were sleeping during OIF. Another even worked as psychiatrist at Ft Hood. Are you sure you aren't an Al-Qaeda propagandist? Because the line you're spewing is the exact thing that they'd like the US populist at large to believe: that we're engaged in a war with the Muslim faith and not a few extremists.Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #55 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuoteRomans 13 Be Subject to Government 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. I'm surprised you have never seen this before. People who join the military are subject to the governing authority. If the government declares an enemy and orders me to kill him, I am obligated to obey. What if you join a military and you're ordered to pray to Mecca? That is funny. I believe the words hyperbole or exaggeration fit very well with your response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,490 #56 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteRomans 13 Be Subject to Government 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. I'm surprised you have never seen this before. People who join the military are subject to the governing authority. If the government declares an enemy and orders me to kill him, I am obligated to obey. What if you join a military and you're ordered to pray to Mecca? That is funny. I believe the words hyperbole or exaggeration fit very well with your response. I would have thought that there are several militaries in the world where Muslim prayer was mandatory. Therefore if Ron was in one of those, it would apparently be his duty as a Christian to perform Muslim worship.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #57 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuote"Not only a belief, it is a comfort. The guy at the other end of the muzzle is not only poor, he is the declared enemy. It is my job to take him out. " WTF??? I don’t believe in any religion. But I know for sure as a Christian you should forgive to your enemies not to shoot them!!! A true Christian (as far as I understand) shouldn’t have a job to kill anyone. Who would Jesus shoot? There are two types of people: -Intelligent with common sense. -Religious with dogma Romans 13 Be Subject to Government 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. I'm surprised you have never seen this before. People who join the military are subject to the governing authority. If the government declares an enemy and orders me to kill him, I am obligated to obey. You would have made an AWESOME WWII German Soldier - "I was just following orders...." You are obligated to follow lawful orders. You are not obligated to follow unlawful orders. In theory, you are supposed to be intelligent enough and educated enough to tell the difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #58 August 23, 2010 Quote"Smith, 21, was stationed in Virginia for nearly seven months for helicopter electrician training" Quote This leads me to believe he was still in his basic training phase of the military. During this phase there is absolutly no real free time and if his chain of command did decide to organize something like this Any non attenders would of course be assigned to the barracks and ordered to clean something. Exactly. Happened to us as well when I was in basic and AIT. You don't have "free time" especially in basic training. Just like going to church on Sunday. If you didn't go, you were doing some sort of clean up detail. It wasn't punishment at all. You either went or you did the details that were already scheduled for that day. It did suck though to see people go to services just so they could get out of a detail that they didn't want to do. Not because they were religious.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #59 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteRomans 13 Be Subject to Government 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. I'm surprised you have never seen this before. People who join the military are subject to the governing authority. If the government declares an enemy and orders me to kill him, I am obligated to obey. What if you join a military and you're ordered to pray to Mecca? That is funny. I believe the words hyperbole or exaggeration fit very well with your response. I would have thought that there are several militaries in the world where Muslim prayer was mandatory. Therefore if Ron was in one of those, it would apparently be his duty as a Christian to perform Muslim worship. Since Ron list the country he lives in as the United States and was addressing the U.S. military, your point and attempted redirection is moot. Thanks for playing. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1981 to 1988 is 7 years-Kallend (oops, it's actually 8 years Kallend) The decade of the 80's was from 1980 to 1989. 10 years. If you remove 1980 and 1989 you have 1981 to 1988. 8 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,490 #60 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteRomans 13 Be Subject to Government 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. I'm surprised you have never seen this before. People who join the military are subject to the governing authority. If the government declares an enemy and orders me to kill him, I am obligated to obey. What if you join a military and you're ordered to pray to Mecca? That is funny. I believe the words hyperbole or exaggeration fit very well with your response. I would have thought that there are several militaries in the world where Muslim prayer was mandatory. Therefore if Ron was in one of those, it would apparently be his duty as a Christian to perform Muslim worship. Since Ron list the country he lives in as the United States and was addressing the U.S. military, your point and attempted redirection is moot. Thanks for playing. Your objection is incorrect. Ron's biblical quote does not specify the authority as the US gov't and the subject as Ron, it applies to any authority and any person. If Ron wants the point to stand up, the issue of people who are subject to authorites that would order them to deny the biblical god, worship other gods, commit atrocities etc. are relevant considerations that need to be addressed.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #61 August 23, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Romans 13 Be Subject to Government 1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. I'm surprised you have never seen this before. People who join the military are subject to the governing authority. If the government declares an enemy and orders me to kill him, I am obligated to obey. What if you join a military and you're ordered to pray to Mecca? That is funny. I believe the words hyperbole or exaggeration fit very well with your response. I would have thought that there are several militaries in the world where Muslim prayer was mandatory. Therefore if Ron was in one of those, it would apparently be his duty as a Christian to perform Muslim worship. Since Ron list the country he lives in as the United States and was addressing the U.S. military, your point and attempted redirection is moot. Thanks for playing. Your objection is incorrect. Ron's biblical quote does not specify the authority as the US gov't and the subject as Ron, it applies to any authority and any person. If Ron wants the point to stand up, the issue of people who are subject to authorites that would order them to deny the biblical god, worship other gods, commit atrocities etc. are relevant considerations that need to be addressed. Okie dokie. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1981 to 1988 is 7 years-Kallend (oops, it's actually 8 years Kallend) The decade of the 80's was from 1980 to 1989. 10 years. If you remove 1980 and 1989 you have 1981 to 1988. 8 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,490 #62 August 23, 2010 Feel free to point out where the logic breaks down. No, really - go for it.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #63 August 23, 2010 Can you imagine the screaming, frothing at the mouths and threats of violence that would ensue if US soldiers were punished for not attending a Muslim event? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #64 August 23, 2010 QuoteCan you imagine the screaming, frothing at the mouths and threats of violence that would ensue if US soldiers were punished for not attending a Muslim event? The same thing would have happened if it had been a Muslim, Jewish or Buddist event. The same thing would have happened if it was an event that supported EVERY faith. This is not punishment, it was soldiers being told to do what they would normally be doing even if there wasn't an event to attended. These soldiers that are complaining of being punished, are, I bet the same ones that go on sick call all the time and complain when it is their turn to pull staff duty. They thought if they didnt go to the concert they would get to lay around in their bunks and do nothing. When their chain of command made them do something, they got pissed and started bitching about it. When I was in Basic training, James Brown came to Ft. Jackson. They gave us a choice, either go to the concert or stay behind and clean up the barracks. The guys that didn't go, started complaining that they were punished for not liking James Brown. No they weren't, they had the same chance as the rest of us to go. They choose not to go, knowing full well what they would have to do if they didn't. I never went to Church on Sunday, even though it would have been an easy way to get out of mowing the lawn and picking up trash or stripping and waxing the barracks floor. Should I have complained about religious people getting special treatment? They usually have details planned and then give people the OPTION TO GO to these types of events. They dont say, we have planned this Christian concert for all of you and you HAVE TO GO or you will be punished. This story is nothing more then a bunch of kids whining about not being allowed to lay down and sleep instead of doing what soldiers do.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #65 August 23, 2010 >The same thing would have happened if it had been a Muslim, Jewish or Buddist event. Right. But it was a Christian event, so it's fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #66 August 23, 2010 QuoteFeel free to point out where the logic breaks down. No, really - go for it. There must be logic before it can break down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,490 #67 August 23, 2010 QuoteQuoteFeel free to point out where the logic breaks down. No, really - go for it. There must be logic before it can break down. Didn't think you had anything. Nice try though.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #68 August 23, 2010 It would have been fine no matter what religion the concert was for. They were not being punished. They were simply not allowed to lay around and do nothing. That is not how the Army works Bill. Not while you are in training. While in Basic especially, you dont have very much free time at all. If you choose to not attend one of these events. Then you will be doing something else. That something else is never just laying around. Soldiers in training do not get the luxury of having idle time. You are either training, eating or sleeping. If they had MADE them attend this event, then that would have been bad. To make them do what they normally would have been doing anyway is not punishment. I had to work and pull duty on Jewish Holidays when I was in the Army. Was I being punished because I am not Jewish? No, the Jewish soldiers where simply allowed to observe their religion and I was simply doing what had to be done anyway. It was not a punishment, it was just normal everyday activity for soldiers in training.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #69 August 23, 2010 >It would have been fine no matter what religion the concert was for. If your point is "it wasn't really a punishment since they just had the option of doing something" then I agree. It's a semantic argument but you have a good point. If your point is "even if it were a Muslim event it would have been fine; no one would have made a fuss" then I completely disagree. Look at the furor over a Muslim center being opened two and a half blocks from the WTC site. Now imagine a right winger taking the Muslim event issue and doing the same with it. "Soldiers who fought Muslim terrorists forced to pray to them!" FOX News would show nothing else for eight weeks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #70 August 23, 2010 QuoteIf your point is "it wasn't really a punishment since they just had the option of doing something" then I agree. It's a semantic argument but you have a good point. That is my point. QuoteIf your point is "even if it were a Muslim event it would have been fine; no one would have made a fuss" then I completely disagree. Look at the furor over a Muslim center being opened two and a half blocks from the WTC site. Now imagine a right winger taking the Muslim event issue and doing the same with it. "Soldiers who fought Muslim terrorists forced to pray to them!" FOX News would show nothing else for eight weeks. That would be just....well...wrong. The Army as I knew it. Never forced anyone to attend any religious service.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #71 August 23, 2010 >That would be just....well...wrong. The Army as I knew it. Never forced >anyone to attend any religious service. I agree. But that's how it would be portrayed by people with political agendas, accurate or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #72 August 23, 2010 QuoteThat would be just....well...wrong. The Army as I knew it. Never forced anyone to attend any religious service. It is splitting a very fine hair when your choices are 1. Attend a Religious service (particularly of a Religion you aren't a member of aka Christian) 2. Clean the latrines (that everyone of all religions use) while everyone else is at a religious service. However if the soldiers in question were motivated enough to propose an acceptable alternative and it was denied them, then they are infact being punished for not attending. Ft Sill had (then it does now in part because attention was drawn to the fact it was lacking acceptable alternatives) no Buddhist services when I went through basic, it took a letter and a couple of phone calls from flag grade officers, but I (and several others who eventually joined me including one DrillSGT) was allowed to meditate on the PT field while the Christians held their religious observations in the chapel. ofc it helped immensely that I was well aware of my rights with respect to religious observances and had access to flag grade officers to ensure my direct superiors respected my rights.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #73 August 23, 2010 For me. given the choice of attending a religious function or cleaning the barracks, including the toilets, the latter would win out every time. The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #74 August 24, 2010 QuoteShow me where they signed away their right to freedom of religion. They didn't - the military has multidenominational services. Of course, all the naysayers in the thread are confusing a concert with religious services, but that's to be expected for the usual bashfest.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #75 August 24, 2010 Quote>That would be just....well...wrong. The Army as I knew it. Never forced >anyone to attend any religious service. I agree. But that's how it would be portrayed by people with political agendas, accurate or not. Like this thread, you mean?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
