Stolen Valor Act struck down as unconsitutional

[377 22]

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has just ruled that the Stolen Valor Act, which makes it a federal crime to claim falsely to be a recipient of miltary decorations, medals etc, is unconstitutional since it criminalizes a false statement with nothing more required for a conviction. Free speech apparently includes the right to lie if it isnt part of other criminal behavior such as tax evasion, obstructing justice etc.

I know it will raise a storm here since we have so many jumpers who are decorated vets, but I think the law criminalized mental illness and for that reason should be heavily amended or stricken down.

I have run into a few of these military hero posers and they have all been mentally ill insecure grandiose chronic liars. I know it enrages combat vets to see these liars go unpunished, but is it really a good use of federal resources to prosecute and imprison these pathetic imposters? If they use the ruse for monetary gain there are plenty of other laws dealing with fraud that can be used to prosecute them.

Let the storm begin.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/stolen-valor-act-is-declared-unconstitutional-by-circuit-court/


377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Amazon 7]

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The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has just ruled that the Stolen Valor Act, which makes it a federal crime to claim falsely to be a recipient of miltary decorations, medals etc, is unconstitutional since it criminalizes a false statement with nothing more required for a conviction. Free speech apparently includes the right to lie if it isnt part of other criminal behavior such as tax evasion, obstructing justice etc.

I know it will raise a storm here since we have so many jumpers who are decorated vets, but I think the law criminalized mental illness and for that reason should be heavily amended or stricken down.

I have run into a few of these military hero posers and they have all been mentally ill insecure grandiose chronic liars. I know it enrages combat vets to see these liars go unpunished, but is it really a good use of federal resources to prosecute and imprison these pathetic imposters? If they use the ruse for monetary gain there are plenty of other laws dealing with fraud that can be used to prosecute them.

Let the storm begin.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/stolen-valor-act-is-declared-unconstitutional-by-circuit-court/


377

Hey I am ok with helping them out.... a stint in a mental health facility sould be good for them.

[monkycndo 0]

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[scruffy 0]

As reprehensible as their actions may be, and trust me, I have no shortage of choice words I have for anyone who would do something like devalue the honorable service of our armed forces...I can't find a singe reason, and I've been enjoying legal debates with other legal junkies, why this would not be protected speech under the first amendment.

If any of you have a reason why it would not be protected speech I'd love to hear it, but I can't come up with any myself.

Peace, love and hoppiness

[matthias 0]

I used to let this shit piss me off when I returned home. Just like the whuffos who pretend to be skydivers, you can't bullshit the real thing. You just can't.

They way I feel about it, they can play imaginary pretend games all they want. And even if they manage to fool everyone, they will always feel incomplete for knowing the truth. Either way, I lump everyone with a lack of integrity in the same category, and just avoid em. They are what they have always amounted to....nothing. just my 0.02

_________________________________________
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[theonlyski 8]

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As reprehensible as their actions may be, and trust me, I have no shortage of choice words I have for anyone who would do something like devalue the honorable service of our armed forces...I can't find a singe reason, and I've been enjoying legal debates with other legal junkies, why this would not be protected speech under the first amendment.

If any of you have a reason why it would not be protected speech I'd love to hear it, but I can't come up with any myself.

Think about this, would you want just anyone off the streets announce themselves as a police officer, FBI or DEA agent?

I've worked hard to earn my medals, I already get pissed off when people who do little more than the bare minimum get a BSM or ARCOM just because of their rank, not their work... But to have someone LIE about having one?

If they're mentally unstable, then they should be required to undergo treatment for the wellbeing of the rest of the society. If they're not, they should be punished for stealing (and eventually done enough, degrading) the honor that these men and women have fought and died for.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[funjumper101 15]

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Free speech apparently includes the right to lie if it isnt part of other criminal behavior such as tax evasion, obstructing justice etc.

That is why Lush Rimjob, Scum Hannity, Nutjob Beck, Faux News, etc, continue to spread their lies, falsehoods, and total bullshit, without penalty They are protected by the First Amendment.

If only their advertisers would muster up some ethics and quit sponsoring their crap, they would go away like Dr. Laura is going away. Not because of First Amendment Rights violation, but because their advertisers quit supporting them..

[billvon 2,991]

>Think about this, would you want just anyone off the streets
>announce themselves as a police officer, FBI or DEA agent?

If they did it to brag? Let them be assholes. There are a lot of assholes out there.

If they did it to demand your ID, or arrest you, or order you to do something in the name of the law? Then prosecute them for impersonating an officer.

>If they're not, they should be punished for stealing (and eventually done
>enough, degrading) the honor that these men and women have fought and
>died for.

You cannot steal someone's honor any more than you can steal their honesty or their courage. Someone who tries degrades only themselves.

[Skyrad 0]

Name and shame

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

As long as any fraud (VA benefits, commmunity donations, free food on Veteran's Day) committed by these lowlifes is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, I agree. It isn't illegal to lie.

I really like the groups that expose these pretenders, and I understand that quite a few of the Special Ops types (especially SEALs) take it as a personal insult when someone falsely claims to be one of them. Hint: Don't insult a SEAL, it can be pretty painful.

I've run across a few falsely claiming Special Ops experience (there are some really easy questions that will expose them) and most are pretty pathetic. The real ones don't go around telling everyone how badass they are, they don't have to prove anything to anybody. They've already proven it to themselves and their teammates, and nobody else really matters.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[theonlyski 8]

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>Think about this, would you want just anyone off the streets
>announce themselves as a police officer, FBI or DEA agent?

If they did it to brag? Let them be assholes. There are a lot of assholes out there.

If they did it to demand your ID, or arrest you, or order you to do something in the name of the law? Then prosecute them for impersonating an officer.

>If they're not, they should be punished for stealing (and eventually done
>enough, degrading) the honor that these men and women have fought and
>died for.

You cannot steal someone's honor any more than you can steal their honesty or their courage. Someone who tries degrades only themselves.

So, its ok as long as they don't try to use their stated credentials?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Skyrad 0]

I read on here once about some Walt who went into the Bomb Shelter at Perris with a Trident tatooed on his calf big timing. Still makes me chuckle.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=276978#276978

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 2,991]

>So, its ok as long as they don't try to use their stated credentials?

It's not OK; they are being assholes in those cases. But it shouldn't be illegal unless they try to usurp the additional rights that law enforcement officials have. (i.e. if someone demands your ID, you don't have to give it to them; if a cop asks you for yours, you do.)

[theonlyski 8]

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>So, its ok as long as they don't try to use their stated credentials?

It's not OK; they are being assholes in those cases. But it shouldn't be illegal unless they try to usurp the additional rights that law enforcement officials have. (i.e. if someone demands your ID, you don't have to give it to them; if a cop asks you for yours, you do.)

What if they're wearing it on their uniform? If a person wearing an authentic police uniform asked for your ID...would you stop and demand his credentials?


Probably not...

The medals are cheap, can be ordered on the internet, military surplus stores and even on post (if you have PX permission)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[NickDG 23]

I'm thinking we need more free speech, not less. Yes, I disdain those posers too, but the bigger picture is more important. I want Nazis marching down main street. I want Fox news spreading their agenda driven filth. I want more homophobic gay bashing. Because as soon as we feel freedom isn't in need of street soldiers standindg up it'll be the end of us all . . .

[scruffy 0]

The way I think of it is, comparing it to active LEOs, is that if someone comes up to the door of your car and says get out, get your face on the curb and let search you and take your stuff, I got a DSC in the army while I was in the 5th special forces group, you're going to (or at least I would, I guess I shouldn't make ASSumptions) tell him to go fuck himself and go about your merry way.

But if someone lights up your car and taps a badge on the glass would the response be the same?

I don't think there's any imminent danger of anyone purporting a military service record they didn't earn. What there is a danger of is fraud (VA, paid public speaking events, etc)...but that's fraud and illegal already. Same with maybe perjury or other commercial speech items. The supreme court generally has the idea that commercial speech is more commerce than speech, so it's a lot easier to make laws against it. If the government wants to try again and write up a law specifically to nail some cats who are directly using false records for direct monetary benefit than I think it would stand at constitutional muster. But at the end of the day if someone wants to raid a army navy store and walk around like a jackass, it's their constitutional right to be a jackass.

tl;dr: the law as written, in my opinion, is vague, unconstitutional, and unenforceable...but if the government wants to try again and make it a commercial speech issue than I say that's all for the better.

Peace, love and hoppiness

[jakee 1,489]

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>So, its ok as long as they don't try to use their stated credentials?

It's not OK; they are being assholes in those cases. But it shouldn't be illegal unless they try to usurp the additional rights that law enforcement officials have. (i.e. if someone demands your ID, you don't have to give it to them; if a cop asks you for yours, you do.)

What if they're wearing it on their uniform? If a person wearing an authentic police uniform asked for your ID...would you stop and demand his credentials?


Probably not...

The medals are cheap, can be ordered on the internet, military surplus stores and even on post (if you have PX permission)

I don't get this line of argument.

Someone with a row of medals on his chest, even those legitimately earned, doesn't have any authority over you as a private citizen. A policeman does.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[377 22]

It is a bad idea to make lying a crime. It would put beered up skydivers in great jeopardy.

visiting jumper: "there I was, coming in for the last grip on a 100 way"

local jumper: "I know for a fact he has never been in anything bigger than an Otter load and he's funneled most of those. Read him his rights and cuff him"

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[BillyVance 34]

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Name and shame

Plus a good old fashioned beat-down in some alley by REAL medal earners.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Bolas 5]

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It is a bad idea to make lying a crime. It would put beered up skydivers in great jeopardy.

visiting jumper: "there I was, coming in for the last grip on a 100 way"

local jumper: "I know for a fact he has never been in anything bigger than an Otter load and he's funneled most of those. Read him his rights and cuff him"

377

Like spanking, this may not be a deterrent...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[skybill 22]

Hi 377,
Well the issue is not totally dead yet. It only made it to the 9th Circus....so far. Still has to get thru the SCOTUS, then it's a done deal. Go to Chuck and Mary Shantags' website the POWnetwork and check out the wannabys and imposters. One guy tried to sue them fror taking him down but funny how karma goes. He was at his local VFW drinkin beer and tellin his sphiel then bingo....collapsed and died of a heart attack at the bar..... Took a while for someone to come over and kick his dead ass to see if he was still breathin'. Then someone said, nevermind 911 just call the meatwagon. Just remember the light blue ribbon with the white stars on it is "NOT" the geedunk ribbon I don't care who told you. Be advised you can and will get your ass righteously kicked by serious military types if you get found out!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[Binkus 0]

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I've run across a few falsely claiming Special Ops experience (there are some really easy questions that will expose them) and most are pretty pathetic. The real ones don't go around telling everyone how badass they are, they don't have to prove anything to anybody. They've already proven it to themselves and their teammates, and nobody else really matters.

I could not agree more.

[kallend 2,026]

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It isn't illegal to lie.

Well, at least Washington DC would be empty, but we'd sure have to build a lot more prisons.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 220]

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If any of you have a reason why it would not be protected speech I'd love to hear it, but I can't come up with any myself.

If you walk up to someone and say that yu are a retired police officer, is that impersonating a police officer? What if you just neglect to mention retired?

If you state that you have won the CMH, are you now allowed all its priveledges? What if monetary gain is offered just because of your mentioning it, are you now entitled to that gain as it wasn't asked for, but offered?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[scruffy 0]

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are you now entitled to that gain as it wasn't asked for, but offered?

Obviously this is going to vary from state to state, but I'm under the impression that's still fraud by deception. I've already said here that if congress wants to try again and make a law that specifically targets people who reap personal gain through fraudulent claims about ones purported military service than that's probably closer to a commercial speech issue and would stand a better chance of passing a constitutional test. But if the law includes lines like simply "falsely represent[ing] himself or herself, verbally or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress" can get six months in prison...there is no way in hades that's not going to get burned up in a court. Whoever thought this law was in any way close to be constitutionally sound should have read the majority opinion of Cohen v Cali and slowed their roll a little. With the amount of JDs in our congress this kind of stuff is mind blowing to me.

Peace, love and hoppiness