jakee 1,489 #51 September 5, 2010 QuoteQuote So you are in favour of stoning adulterers to death, whipping unmarried women seen in public with men, life imprisonment for insulting the King of Thailand... you basically have no criticism of any law in any country. Here we go round in circles. I am only concerned with where I live. But it's not about you, it's about God, right? Is God only concerned with the Government of the US? If Romans applies, then it applies everywhere - and no matter how much you try to ignore the issue it does inevitably lead you to condone the most heinous punishments and the most draconian laws to be found anywhere in the world.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #52 September 5, 2010 QuoteI am in favor of the death penalty based on Scriptural justification and my personal belief in the concept of the punishment fitting the crime. Well, just as long as we govern our country based upon the fable, that's what's important. So how does the good book justify killing the occassional innocent person? Kill em all and let God sort em out? Or more of a Salemesque approach? Give me the needle and if they live they are a witch, die they were innocent? Welcome to 1692; enjoy your stay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials The episode has been used in political rhetoric and popular literature as a vivid cautionary tale about the dangers of religious extremism, false accusations, lapses in due process, and governmental intrusion on individual liberties.[1] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #53 September 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteBut that is what it says in the scriptures. Show me one from the new covenant. Semantics. Doesn't the Old Testament reference retribution, the new ideolize forgiveness? If so, then you did reference retribution in punishment fitting crime (eye for eye, etc). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #54 September 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou show me. After all it was YOU who said... Quote I am in favor of the death penalty based on Scriptural justification So show me. If you can't show me in the New Testament then I can only take it that you are refering to the Old Testament in which it says that Adulters and homosexuals should be stoned to death. So show me or reveal your hypocracy. I apologize, I took advantage of you because I know you lack education and understanding of the Scriptures. It does not exist in the new covenant. The new covenant instructs us to follow the law of the land regarding the death penalty. Read Romans 13. So you lied in order to try to grease a point by; I see you're an Old Testamenter. I think there are a lot of closeted OT folks. Jesus repeatedly denounces violence in the Gospels (most explicitly in Matthew 5:38-39/Luke 6:27-28 and Matthew 26:52), and personally interrupts a biblically sanctioned execution (John 8:3-11), which would seem to indicate clear opposition to capital punishment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 471 #55 September 5, 2010 QuoteNumber of points. 1) The death penalty is surely only ever give when the evidence is overwhelming, if it wasn't then the person wouldn't be able to have been found guilty. Yet mistakes have happened on numerous occasions. 2) What is the intended purpose of the DP? If its to prevent reoffending its pretty effective (so long as its the right person) if its to deter others it doesn't work. If its for retribution, well then it works only in the short term, chances are that it wouldn't give the satisfied feeling in the long term. 3) You don't give us enough informatio about your friend and the circumstances surrounding their death. If they were a gang banger who got killed over drugs then that a very different situation than if they were a clean living youngster who was shot in a drive by. Personally I think there is certain circumstance where it is appropriate (The moors murderers, The Yorkshire Ripper, the Soham murderer and his ilk, the Washington Snipers, yes both of them) but I can't pick one of your options as there is too little information. Lee was a popular poster here and a skydiver http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3036717;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; I guess Turtle just assumed that people would know who he was referring to. By the way I have the deepest respect for his wife and family asking the jury NOT to choose the death penalty - I sincerely doubt that I could be that rational and not let hatred and revenge colour my judgement. My personal view is that if life means life in prison then fine, but our system here where life sentences can be served concurrently and only result in 10-20years in jail is sick. The mere fact that the yorkshire ripper is able to consider the fact that he may leave jail goes to show how lax European justice has become.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #56 September 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteYou show me. After all it was YOU who said... Quote I am in favor of the death penalty based on Scriptural justification So show me. If you can't show me in the New Testament then I can only take it that you are refering to the Old Testament in which it says that Adulters and homosexuals should be stoned to death. So show me or reveal your hypocracy. I apologize, I took advantage of you because I know you lack education and understanding of the Scriptures. It does not exist in the new covenant. The new covenant instructs us to follow the law of the land regarding the death penalty. Read Romans 13. Nothing wrong with my education of the scriptures, I simply don't subscribe to your twisted pick and mix interpretation of them.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #57 September 5, 2010 Quote and hatred of enemy Well thats you in the shit then.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #58 September 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote Since when did Paul outrank Jesus? He doesn't. He just instructs as an acceptable, accurate and humble servant. We only have Paul's word for that. Why wouldn't you believe that? A murderer and hater of Christians before having a 'moment' on a the road to Damascus which no one else saw. He fell out with the real disciples of Jesus (The ones that actually knew Jesus) then went off and changed the laws of Moses removing the parts about not eating pig and having to have your foreskin lopped off as it would be an almost impossible sell to the Romans and Greeks. Why wouldn''t you believe him?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #59 September 5, 2010 QuoteQuote So you are in favour of stoning adulterers to death, whipping unmarried women seen in public with men, life imprisonment for insulting the King of Thailand... you basically have no criticism of any law in any country. Here we go round in circles. I am only concerned with where I live. Nice cop out.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #60 September 5, 2010 I remember Lee or Skinnyshrek as I knew him. I heard that he'd been killed but didn't know the back story. Thanks.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #61 September 5, 2010 There have been a number of high profile cases where I felt the killer got what he deserved (John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy for instance). There are some undoubtably guilty people who have committed really horrifying crimes and otherwise led worthless garbage lives. I don't feel a thing for them. But those are my emotions speaking. The FACT is that far too many people have been erroneously convicted of crimes they did not commit. Some of them have been proven innocent by DNA and released, after losing years or whole decades of their lives in prison. Others have gone to their deaths. Not even DNA is a foolproof safeguard. Not when police are under pressure to solve a highly emotional case (a child murdered, an elderly woman raped and murdered, a police officer killed in the line of duty). Not when the police are stumped and they've got "some asshole" in custody who they don't like anyway. Not when police and prosecutors are willing to give perjured testimony, offer breaks to convicted and unreliable felon witnesses, or to withold evidence from the defense, which they are by law required to share - but don't anyway. Not when judges are up for re-election and don't want to be viewed as "soft on crime" because they may have put the pursuit of justice, or the truth, ahead of everyone else's desire for revenge. Consider that when eastern Europe got free of Communist domination in the early 1990's, the first thing ALL of those countries did was to abolish their death penalties. They knew from their own hard experience how the death penalty is abused by the state in the name of "public safety". Finally, if you can't even trust the goverment to deliver a letter, why would you trust that same government to excercise the power of life or death over ANYONE ? Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #62 September 6, 2010 QuoteThere have been a number of high profile cases where I felt the killer got what he deserved (John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy for instance). There are some undoubtably guilty people who have committed really horrifying crimes and otherwise led worthless garbage lives. I don't feel a thing for them. But those are my emotions speaking. The FACT is that far too many people have been erroneously convicted of crimes they did not commit. Some of them have been proven innocent by DNA and released, after losing years or whole decades of their lives in prison. Others have gone to their deaths. Not even DNA is a foolproof safeguard. Not when police are under pressure to solve a highly emotional case (a child murdered, an elderly woman raped and murdered, a police officer killed in the line of duty). Not when the police are stumped and they've got "some asshole" in custody who they don't like anyway. Not when police and prosecutors are willing to give perjured testimony, offer breaks to convicted and unreliable felon witnesses, or to withold evidence from the defense, which they are by law required to share - but don't anyway. Not when judges are up for re-election and don't want to be viewed as "soft on crime" because they may have put the pursuit of justice, or the truth, ahead of everyone else's desire for revenge. Consider that when eastern Europe got free of Communist domination in the early 1990's, the first thing ALL of those countries did was to abolish their death penalties. They knew from their own hard experience how the death penalty is abused by the state in the name of "public safety". Finally, if you can't even trust the goverment to deliver a letter, why would you trust that same government to excercise the power of life or death over ANYONE ? In this case: The DNA evidence consisted of only two samples, they were from the victim and the defendant. The defendant was "ratted out" and apparently confessed to the crime to his cell mate. There was video evidence of the defendant using monetary items that could only have been obtained after the incident. As I understand it, Lee was stabbed, and beaten with a shovel. Somehere in the time line, forced into a closed trailer, driven into another county, and then expired after a struggle and because of blood loss. The trailer was set on fire. Then, he showed up to the victims house professing to be a friend, eating their food, drinking their liquor. He was arrested down the street from the victims house after his second visit.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #63 September 6, 2010 QuoteQuoteThere have been a number of high profile cases where I felt the killer got what he deserved (John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy for instance). There are some undoubtably guilty people who have committed really horrifying crimes and otherwise led worthless garbage lives. I don't feel a thing for them. But those are my emotions speaking. The FACT is that far too many people have been erroneously convicted of crimes they did not commit. Some of them have been proven innocent by DNA and released, after losing years or whole decades of their lives in prison. Others have gone to their deaths. Not even DNA is a foolproof safeguard. Not when police are under pressure to solve a highly emotional case (a child murdered, an elderly woman raped and murdered, a police officer killed in the line of duty). Not when the police are stumped and they've got "some asshole" in custody who they don't like anyway. Not when police and prosecutors are willing to give perjured testimony, offer breaks to convicted and unreliable felon witnesses, or to withold evidence from the defense, which they are by law required to share - but don't anyway. Not when judges are up for re-election and don't want to be viewed as "soft on crime" because they may have put the pursuit of justice, or the truth, ahead of everyone else's desire for revenge. Consider that when eastern Europe got free of Communist domination in the early 1990's, the first thing ALL of those countries did was to abolish their death penalties. They knew from their own hard experience how the death penalty is abused by the state in the name of "public safety". Finally, if you can't even trust the goverment to deliver a letter, why would you trust that same government to excercise the power of life or death over ANYONE ? In this case: QuoteThe DNA evidence consisted of only two samples, they were from the victim and the defendant. Altho DNA is reliable in ID, it can't testify as to how it got there. DNA lab tampering has been discovered multi times, as detectives are close to lab workers and other reasons. QuoteThe defendant was "ratted out" and apparently confessed to the crime to his cell mate. Oh now there's a reliable source; cellmate got a sweetheart deal too, huh? QuoteThere was video evidence of the defendant using monetary items that could only have been obtained after the incident. That could very well be valuable, what were they? Provide links if you can. QuoteAs I understand it, Lee was stabbed, and beaten with a shovel. Somehere in the time line, forced into a closed trailer, driven into another county, and then expired after a struggle and because of blood loss. The trailer was set on fire. Then, he showed up to the victims house professing to be a friend, eating their food, drinking their liquor. Ok, that doesn't denote guilt, drinking a dead victim's beer after the crime. Post a link to data if there is one. QuoteHe was arrested down the street from the victims house after his second visit. OK, I'd like to hear more of the evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #64 September 6, 2010 Do your own fucking homework.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skygirl1 1 #65 September 6, 2010 until it is one of your loved ones that is. Working an a max prison for lifers in wisconsin...no death penalty , I have come across alot of sick !?!?!...no remorse, no regret. There should be only one appeal, and that is it. There obviously needs to be guidelines such as DNA proof, but lets face reality here...thee is no perfect justice system. Walk a tier full of murders, rapists, serial killers, baby killers, watch them watch tv, eat 3 square meals a day, and then have a viable opinion" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites andyvaughn 0 #66 September 6, 2010 It seems that the public in America is widely misinformed about the Death Penalty, it’s cost to society, in both financial and spiritual terms. America and Turkey are the only 2 NATO countries that use the death penalty. Amnesty international has done a signifcant amount of research on the issue of the death penatly – stating that the penalty of death is disproportionately meted out to the “poor, the powerless, the marginalized or those whom repressive govenments deem it expedient to elimnate.” It’s of note that it is a rare day indeed to see a person face the death penalty who been able to afford adequaate legal counsel. The United nations adopted the Universal Declaration of Human rights, stating “every human being has the right not to be killed and not to be jubjected to torture or to creul and degrading punishment”. Consider for a moment the electric chair, still in use in 4 states in our country, which has been ONLY used in the United States. This form of execution is considered creul and inhumane in most of the world, but still used to this day here in the USA. If we can leave the scriptures out of it – just for a moment, and look at the humanitarian issues behind the death penalty. It is not emotional grand standing to say that people have been erroneiously sentenced to death. Take a look at The Innocence Project in a spare moment…and wonder what it might be like to be sitting on death row, truly innocent of the crimes for which you’ve been convicted. And to counter the argument that it is cheaper to execute, it is by far much more expensive to execute a human being than it is to house them for life, in any state in the union. In a report on the cost of the death penalty, written in 2008, it was stated “The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.” As for those that counter that prison is a sort of college dorm atmosphere, where the living is easy – I’d suggest you spend a day or two in a maximum security prison. The tension is high, the threat to life is constant, fear and aggression rule the halls. There is no hope for reform, only for removal of the threat that these men and women pose to free society. Finally, I’d ask you, in considering the merits of the death penatly, and the consequences of this form of punishment that any society mets out, to contemplate the words of Plato…who will guard the guards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #67 September 6, 2010 QuoteDo your own fucking homework. IOW's once again you don't know what you're talking about, yet have a strong opinion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #68 September 6, 2010 Quoteuntil it is one of your loved ones that is. Working an a max prison for lifers in wisconsin...no death penalty , I have come across alot of sick !?!?!...no remorse, no regret. There should be only one appeal, and that is it. There obviously needs to be guidelines such as DNA proof, but lets face reality here...thee is no perfect justice system. Walk a tier full of murders, rapists, serial killers, baby killers, watch them watch tv, eat 3 square meals a day, and then have a viable opinion I get that, but on teh othe rend do you want innocent people to die or spend their lives in prison for a crime they had no knowledge of? Is there more injustice done by convicting an innocent person or freeing a guilty one? That's the big question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 220 #69 September 6, 2010 QuoteQuoteDo your own fucking homework. IOW's once again you don't know what you're talking about, yet have a strong opinion? In the same words - do your own fucking homework, unless you are too lazy or utterly incapable of reading the thread to determine what I am talking about. Strong opionon or not. Do your own fucking homework.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #70 September 6, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteDo your own fucking homework. IOW's once again you don't know what you're talking about, yet have a strong opinion? In the same words - do your own fucking homework, unless you are too lazy or utterly incapable of reading the thread to determine what I am talking about. Strong opionon or not. Do your own fucking homework. If I am willing to pose a strong opinion about a specific issue, I ensure I have enough info. Once I realize I don't, I back away from that opinion. I'm asking you to produce that info since you have a strong opinion, I errantly expected you to have that info. Unfortunately I projected my process upon you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skygirl1 1 #71 September 6, 2010 [ As for those that counter that prison is a sort of college dorm atmosphere, where the living is easy – I’d suggest you spend a day or two in a maximum security prison. The tension is high, the threat to life is constant, fear and aggression rule the halls. There is no hope for reform, only for removal of the threat that these men and women pose to free society. Finally, I’d ask you, in considering the merits of the death penatly, and the consequences of this form of punishment that any society mets out, to contemplate the words of Plato…who will guard the guards?Quote Seriously...that is what this thread is coming to??Money and who will " guard the guards?" Like I said, go work in a max prison like I did...are you willing to sign up for max DOC and walk those tiers? Are you more worried about the guards than the murderers, rapists, and pedophiles that could break out and come to your family?? As stated before, our criminal justice system is not perfect. And how many inmates have been put to death the past 15 years since DNA has been a viable defense??" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #72 September 6, 2010 Both of you cut it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites andyvaughn 0 #73 September 6, 2010 I haven't worked for pay in any maximum security prison - but I have been inside the walls of more than 1 - not as an inmate. It's not a friendly place, and I cannot possibly comment on the conditions of employment within those confines, as I have never chosen to work in that capacity. As to your question - how many inmates have been put to death since DNA began to be a viable defense - I don't have numbers, but if you count 1987 - the first year that DNA was used in a trial, as your starting point, and count the number of persons WRONGLY convicted - that have been overturned by the innocence project, from 1987 to current there are dozens. I'm not suggesting that the current justice system works well. I'm not suggesting that persons who are a threat to free society should be out amongst free men and women. However, what is factual information can't be ignored, innocent people are convicted - and the inverse is certainly true, guilty people walk free. And if you dig back, several posed the argument, "I'm for whatever is cheaper" - if that's your entire basis for supporting the death penalty, then the facts are clear. Life in prison is cheaper. I've also had the opportunity in my life to know 4 men who have once served time for murder. All 4 men were, and are, very guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted and served time - by their own admission. All 4 of these men are rehabilitated members of society, all 4 of these men are welcome in my home. They are fathers, husbands, employees, and members of their respective communities. I won't discard the fact that somewhere, on the other end of these mens crimes is a family, a community of people whose pain can never be eased. That there is pain, and a debt that can't be erased. I can't speak to that - I've never lost a family member to a violent crime. But I also know that 3 of these men have spent a lifetime of service, that they have spent their lives as free men in service to the communities in which they live. It is with 1 of these men that I have been able to carry service work into the state prison system, sometimes to men who are true lifers, who will never again know the taste of life outside of the walls of a maximum security prison. I often have wondered - what void - what would we have lost, if these men had been execued for their crimes? What would we have gained. I also understand that these men are indeed an exception. Often the perpertrators of violent crime come from a lifestyle and an upbringing that could only be described as hellish. I've worked in inner city projects in Los Angeles, I've seen young children so immune to violence - so violent themselves, that I've honestly felt there was absolutely no hope for them. Some of them have proved me right...some of them have proved me wrong. I've seen some of these young men become institutionalized at young ages, codes of conduct and sub-societies that i pray I never truly understand, and pray even harder my children only see on TV or read about in books. Not to go so far off track as to be misconstrued. While I've seen men and women who have been convicted of the worst of human crimes become useful members of society, I'm not about to suggest we try to release violent offenders. But for me, informing myself on the death penatly and its ramifications - trying to understand it from something other than a purely emotional reaction to a very emotional subject, swayed me to hold the convictions I feel deeply about. As for the age old question - who will guard the guards - I believe it is not only our right, but our responsibility - if we are -as we do - put men and women to death for violent crimes, then who shall hold responsibility for the checks and balances? I'm no attorney - I have almost zero understanding of the law, but the cases I've read about of death row inmates, both already executed, and those pending execution, allow for some pretty shocking facts about how the appeals process is handled, what types of attorneys represent these men/women, and how often times it seems there is no true justice. There is of course the victims side of that story. It seems to me that on the flip side of this coin, our system is so badly mangled that victims have less rights than those accused of the crime..... I don't have any answer, but the solution we've been using isn't working.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites andyvaughn 0 #74 September 6, 2010 Quote Both of you cut it out. ok.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Coreece 190 #75 September 6, 2010 Quote I have mixed emotions and would like to open this up for reasonable, and intelligent conversations. Death is a blessing. stay thirsty my friend.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
turtlespeed 220 #64 September 6, 2010 Do your own fucking homework.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirl1 1 #65 September 6, 2010 until it is one of your loved ones that is. Working an a max prison for lifers in wisconsin...no death penalty , I have come across alot of sick !?!?!...no remorse, no regret. There should be only one appeal, and that is it. There obviously needs to be guidelines such as DNA proof, but lets face reality here...thee is no perfect justice system. Walk a tier full of murders, rapists, serial killers, baby killers, watch them watch tv, eat 3 square meals a day, and then have a viable opinion" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyvaughn 0 #66 September 6, 2010 It seems that the public in America is widely misinformed about the Death Penalty, it’s cost to society, in both financial and spiritual terms. America and Turkey are the only 2 NATO countries that use the death penalty. Amnesty international has done a signifcant amount of research on the issue of the death penatly – stating that the penalty of death is disproportionately meted out to the “poor, the powerless, the marginalized or those whom repressive govenments deem it expedient to elimnate.” It’s of note that it is a rare day indeed to see a person face the death penalty who been able to afford adequaate legal counsel. The United nations adopted the Universal Declaration of Human rights, stating “every human being has the right not to be killed and not to be jubjected to torture or to creul and degrading punishment”. Consider for a moment the electric chair, still in use in 4 states in our country, which has been ONLY used in the United States. This form of execution is considered creul and inhumane in most of the world, but still used to this day here in the USA. If we can leave the scriptures out of it – just for a moment, and look at the humanitarian issues behind the death penalty. It is not emotional grand standing to say that people have been erroneiously sentenced to death. Take a look at The Innocence Project in a spare moment…and wonder what it might be like to be sitting on death row, truly innocent of the crimes for which you’ve been convicted. And to counter the argument that it is cheaper to execute, it is by far much more expensive to execute a human being than it is to house them for life, in any state in the union. In a report on the cost of the death penalty, written in 2008, it was stated “The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.” As for those that counter that prison is a sort of college dorm atmosphere, where the living is easy – I’d suggest you spend a day or two in a maximum security prison. The tension is high, the threat to life is constant, fear and aggression rule the halls. There is no hope for reform, only for removal of the threat that these men and women pose to free society. Finally, I’d ask you, in considering the merits of the death penatly, and the consequences of this form of punishment that any society mets out, to contemplate the words of Plato…who will guard the guards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #67 September 6, 2010 QuoteDo your own fucking homework. IOW's once again you don't know what you're talking about, yet have a strong opinion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #68 September 6, 2010 Quoteuntil it is one of your loved ones that is. Working an a max prison for lifers in wisconsin...no death penalty , I have come across alot of sick !?!?!...no remorse, no regret. There should be only one appeal, and that is it. There obviously needs to be guidelines such as DNA proof, but lets face reality here...thee is no perfect justice system. Walk a tier full of murders, rapists, serial killers, baby killers, watch them watch tv, eat 3 square meals a day, and then have a viable opinion I get that, but on teh othe rend do you want innocent people to die or spend their lives in prison for a crime they had no knowledge of? Is there more injustice done by convicting an innocent person or freeing a guilty one? That's the big question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #69 September 6, 2010 QuoteQuoteDo your own fucking homework. IOW's once again you don't know what you're talking about, yet have a strong opinion? In the same words - do your own fucking homework, unless you are too lazy or utterly incapable of reading the thread to determine what I am talking about. Strong opionon or not. Do your own fucking homework.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #70 September 6, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteDo your own fucking homework. IOW's once again you don't know what you're talking about, yet have a strong opinion? In the same words - do your own fucking homework, unless you are too lazy or utterly incapable of reading the thread to determine what I am talking about. Strong opionon or not. Do your own fucking homework. If I am willing to pose a strong opinion about a specific issue, I ensure I have enough info. Once I realize I don't, I back away from that opinion. I'm asking you to produce that info since you have a strong opinion, I errantly expected you to have that info. Unfortunately I projected my process upon you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirl1 1 #71 September 6, 2010 [ As for those that counter that prison is a sort of college dorm atmosphere, where the living is easy – I’d suggest you spend a day or two in a maximum security prison. The tension is high, the threat to life is constant, fear and aggression rule the halls. There is no hope for reform, only for removal of the threat that these men and women pose to free society. Finally, I’d ask you, in considering the merits of the death penatly, and the consequences of this form of punishment that any society mets out, to contemplate the words of Plato…who will guard the guards?Quote Seriously...that is what this thread is coming to??Money and who will " guard the guards?" Like I said, go work in a max prison like I did...are you willing to sign up for max DOC and walk those tiers? Are you more worried about the guards than the murderers, rapists, and pedophiles that could break out and come to your family?? As stated before, our criminal justice system is not perfect. And how many inmates have been put to death the past 15 years since DNA has been a viable defense??" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #72 September 6, 2010 Both of you cut it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyvaughn 0 #73 September 6, 2010 I haven't worked for pay in any maximum security prison - but I have been inside the walls of more than 1 - not as an inmate. It's not a friendly place, and I cannot possibly comment on the conditions of employment within those confines, as I have never chosen to work in that capacity. As to your question - how many inmates have been put to death since DNA began to be a viable defense - I don't have numbers, but if you count 1987 - the first year that DNA was used in a trial, as your starting point, and count the number of persons WRONGLY convicted - that have been overturned by the innocence project, from 1987 to current there are dozens. I'm not suggesting that the current justice system works well. I'm not suggesting that persons who are a threat to free society should be out amongst free men and women. However, what is factual information can't be ignored, innocent people are convicted - and the inverse is certainly true, guilty people walk free. And if you dig back, several posed the argument, "I'm for whatever is cheaper" - if that's your entire basis for supporting the death penalty, then the facts are clear. Life in prison is cheaper. I've also had the opportunity in my life to know 4 men who have once served time for murder. All 4 men were, and are, very guilty of the crimes for which they were convicted and served time - by their own admission. All 4 of these men are rehabilitated members of society, all 4 of these men are welcome in my home. They are fathers, husbands, employees, and members of their respective communities. I won't discard the fact that somewhere, on the other end of these mens crimes is a family, a community of people whose pain can never be eased. That there is pain, and a debt that can't be erased. I can't speak to that - I've never lost a family member to a violent crime. But I also know that 3 of these men have spent a lifetime of service, that they have spent their lives as free men in service to the communities in which they live. It is with 1 of these men that I have been able to carry service work into the state prison system, sometimes to men who are true lifers, who will never again know the taste of life outside of the walls of a maximum security prison. I often have wondered - what void - what would we have lost, if these men had been execued for their crimes? What would we have gained. I also understand that these men are indeed an exception. Often the perpertrators of violent crime come from a lifestyle and an upbringing that could only be described as hellish. I've worked in inner city projects in Los Angeles, I've seen young children so immune to violence - so violent themselves, that I've honestly felt there was absolutely no hope for them. Some of them have proved me right...some of them have proved me wrong. I've seen some of these young men become institutionalized at young ages, codes of conduct and sub-societies that i pray I never truly understand, and pray even harder my children only see on TV or read about in books. Not to go so far off track as to be misconstrued. While I've seen men and women who have been convicted of the worst of human crimes become useful members of society, I'm not about to suggest we try to release violent offenders. But for me, informing myself on the death penatly and its ramifications - trying to understand it from something other than a purely emotional reaction to a very emotional subject, swayed me to hold the convictions I feel deeply about. As for the age old question - who will guard the guards - I believe it is not only our right, but our responsibility - if we are -as we do - put men and women to death for violent crimes, then who shall hold responsibility for the checks and balances? I'm no attorney - I have almost zero understanding of the law, but the cases I've read about of death row inmates, both already executed, and those pending execution, allow for some pretty shocking facts about how the appeals process is handled, what types of attorneys represent these men/women, and how often times it seems there is no true justice. There is of course the victims side of that story. It seems to me that on the flip side of this coin, our system is so badly mangled that victims have less rights than those accused of the crime..... I don't have any answer, but the solution we've been using isn't working.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andyvaughn 0 #74 September 6, 2010 Quote Both of you cut it out. ok.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #75 September 6, 2010 Quote I have mixed emotions and would like to open this up for reasonable, and intelligent conversations. Death is a blessing. stay thirsty my friend.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
