In Honor of Labor Day

[quade 4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CogtZ4EUwww

Forget your "modern" views labor for a moment and reflect on what the early industrial revolution was like; sweatshops, 12-14 hour days, 7 day work weeks, child labor, unsafe working conditions, people locked in their work places with no means to escape fires, debt bondage to a company store.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jclalor 12]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CogtZ4EUwww

Forget your "modern" views labor for a moment and reflect on what the early industrial revolution was like; sweatshops, 12-14 hour days, 7 day work weeks, child labor, unsafe working conditions, people locked in their work places with no means to escape fires, debt bondage to a company store.

I think those are pretty petty issues, if industry did not have to abide by these stupid rules and regulations, just think of the jobs that could be created. Government regulations can only hurt the job market. These workers today are spoiled and overpaid, they even created a holiday for them, go figure.

[billvon 2,989]

>I think those are pretty petty issues, if industry did not have to abide
>by these stupid rules and regulations, just think of the jobs that could be
>created.

Exactly. Heck, it's not even economically feasible to utilize human mine bracing any more. Think of all the young Americans we could employ as braces in the more dangerous mines! They would make the mines safer _and_ more profitable.

[Lucky... 0]

According to RonD1120 it's a Socialist holiday. WOW.

[RonD1120 62]

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According to RonD1120 it's a Socialist holiday. WOW.

You are so easy.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Lucky... 0]

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According to RonD1120 it's a Socialist holiday. WOW.

You are so easy.

And you acquiesced.

[Kennedy 0]

Yep, we've come a long way. The problem is unions are still acting like they face those problems today, and using the same old steps to fight. If we keep going too far along this route, we'll go the way of France Spain and Greece: bankruptcy. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go backwards, but there are reasons industry has abandoned US soil. The cost of labor is so high that it threatens the viability of the business, and other countries with the problems we corrected are cheaper. If the US acts to protect itself people call it protectionist and isolationist. If the US doesn't, then businesses flee and workers here don't have work.

Before the socialists jump in and talk about evil business owners hurting the little guy, let's remember that both aides had a hand in getting us where we are today.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 4]

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The cost of labor is so high that it threatens the viability of the business, and other countries with the problems we corrected are cheaper.

The problem with the cost of labor in the US isn't that it's "too high." Unions worked very well in the US for decades before anyone decided to ship jobs over seas. The problem is that in other countries it was cheaper -- mostly because they -didn't- have the common sense protections labor in the US did. We had bombed the shit out of them during WWII and when they finally recovered from that, their labor was dirt cheap.

Call centers in the US worked just fine until there was infrastructure in India that would enable those jobs to be shipped there for a small fraction of what it cost in the US.

When manufacturing was in the US, the US thrived. Never was there a more prosperous time in the history of the US for ALL levels.

People LOVE to blame the unions, but I don't see how that's a supportable position. It has WAY more to do with the fact that labor in developing countries was pennies on the dollar compared to the US and ONLY because they didn't have ANY labor laws in place.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 23]

The Unions and GM worked out well dont you think?

And then of course there is the law in the house that bails out the Teamsters pension

All good shit huh.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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People LOVE to blame the unions, but I don't see how that's a supportable position

Unsurprising.

Calling GM and Chrysler....GM and Chrysler to a red courtesy phone, please...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Yep, we've come a long way. The problem is unions are still acting like they face those problems today, and using the same old steps to fight.

Yea, it's not like they're stealing our HC and raiding our pensions or anything; god damned unions and their veracity to still want labor day paid.

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If we keep going too far along this route, we'll go the way of France Spain and Greece: bankruptcy.

Earth to Kennedy: WE ARE FUCKING BANKRUPT UNDER YOUR HERO, FASCIST RONNIE AND GWB.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go backwards, but there are reasons industry has abandoned US soil.

Yes, corporate greed and lack of tariffs.

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The cost of labor is so high that it threatens the viability of the business, and other countries with the problems we corrected are cheaper.

Don't worry, just elect more R's and our dollar will be so devalued that manufacturing will come back via default.

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If the US acts to protect itself people call it protectionist and isolationist. If the US doesn't, then businesses flee and workers here don't have work.

And if taxes remain low, corporations and the rich will continue to profit take and ice the econo0my, driving down wages, their real agenda.

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Before the socialists jump in and talk about evil business owners hurting the little guy, let's remember that both aides had a hand in getting us where we are today.

Oh, show me where the D's have jacked up the debt. Show me market growth and Real GDP growth under R's vs D's. Yes please, let's talk economy and the parties footprint on it.

[Lucky... 0]

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When manufacturing was in the US, the US thrived. Never was there a more prosperous time in the history of the US for ALL levels.

Not to mention high taxes during those years requiring reinvestment vs profit-taking.

[Lucky... 0]

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The Unions and GM worked out well dont you think?

And then of course there is the law in the house that bails out the Teamsters pension

All good shit huh.....

I know, we should have learned from Enron and that fucking the working people is far better and cheaper; I'm with you Rushy.

[quade 4]

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People LOVE to blame the unions, but I don't see how that's a supportable position

Unsurprising.
Calling GM and Chrysler....GM and Chrysler to a red courtesy phone, please...

You're not looking at the entire picture. In particular promoting piece of shit cars.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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People LOVE to blame the unions, but I don't see how that's a supportable position

Unsurprising.
Calling GM and Chrysler....GM and Chrysler to a red courtesy phone, please...

You're not looking at the entire picture. In particular promoting piece of shit cars.

Quite obviously, neither are you.

GM, $73.26/hour total labor cost in 2006. Ford, $70.51/hour. (From Business Week, ca. 2007)

From CNN(ca. 2007)

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As analyzed by Harbour-Felax, labor costs the Detroit Three substantially more per vehicle than it does the Japanese.

Health care is the biggest chunk. GM (Charts), for instance spends $1,635 per vehicle on health care for active and retired workers in the U.S. Toyota (Charts) pays nothing for retired workers - it has very few - and only $215 for active ones.

Other labor costs add to the bill. Contract issues like work rules, line relief and holiday pay amount to $630 per vehicle - costs that the Japanese don't have. And paying UAW members for not working when plants are shut costs another $350 per vehicle.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

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Quote

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People LOVE to blame the unions, but I don't see how that's a supportable position

Unsurprising.
Calling GM and Chrysler....GM and Chrysler to a red courtesy phone, please...

You're not looking at the entire picture. In particular promoting piece of shit cars.

Quite obviously, neither are you.

GM, $73.26/hour total labor cost in 2006. Ford, $70.51/hour. (From Business Week, ca. 2007)

From CNN(ca. 2007)

Quote

As analyzed by Harbour-Felax, labor costs the Detroit Three substantially more per vehicle than it does the Japanese.

Health care is the biggest chunk. GM (Charts), for instance spends $1,635 per vehicle on health care for active and retired workers in the U.S. Toyota (Charts) pays nothing for retired workers - it has very few - and only $215 for active ones.

Other labor costs add to the bill. Contract issues like work rules, line relief and holiday pay amount to $630 per vehicle - costs that the Japanese don't have. And paying UAW members for not working when plants are shut costs another $350 per vehicle.

WOW, $73 to $70; my you make a great semantic argument. So this is why Ford didn't need the bailout and GM did? And as for your comparison to Japanese makers costs, I wonder what kind of medical program they have over there? Great arguments.

[mnealtx 0]

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WOW, $73 to $70; my you make a great semantic argument.

And you make no argument at all. Oh - Daimler/Chrysler is $75.86/hour.

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So this is why Ford didn't need the bailout and GM did?

GM's parts costs were higher than Ford's, and Ford negotiated a salary cut down to $55/hour in '09.

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And as for your comparison to Japanese makers costs, I wonder what kind of medical program they have over there?

One that doesn't carry the dead weight (pardon the pun) of retired workers?

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Great arguments.

Thanks, I know they are.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

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According to RonD1120 it's a Socialist holiday. WOW.

You are so easy.

You owe me a keyboard.

[RonD1120 62]

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According to RonD1120 it's a Socialist holiday. WOW.

You are so easy.

You owe me a keyboard.

I have an extra. Where shall I send it?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Andy9o8 2]

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According to RonD1120 it's a Socialist holiday. WOW.

You are so easy.

You owe me a keyboard.

I have an extra. Where shall I send it?

Donate it here:

http://www.aclufl.org/tampa/

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Unions promote mediocre behavior at best, but more often than not, they just promote a sense of self entitlement that actually delivers a sub-par productivity level. I laugh whenever I encounter city workers out there on some project. You get a dozen unionized workers standing around some job site while one person works, each waiting their turn to do some small specialized task. If you want to see why so much money is wasted on public projects, one only needs to see how these city union workers operate. Unions are never about getting a task done in an efficient manner, no unions are all about "how much can we suck out of the operation while doing the bare minimum of work".

There is so much that is wrong these days with how the western world operates (unions can not be blamed for all of society's issues), but unions do continue their cancerous practices that definitely do not help the situation.

Unions promote mediocre behavior at best!!!

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[quade 4]

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Unions promote mediocre behavior at best!!!

Such a narrow minded view. Maybe in the unions you've belonged to, but certainly not in any of the ones I ever have. Have you ever considered that not all unions are alike?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

Earth to lucky. No one gives any credence to your nonsense. You've been smacked down in threads where you suggested this nonsense. For the sake of bandwidth, just write "I'm a socialist and I hate successful people and wan the economy taxed to a standstill." We'll all know what you mean without the wasted space.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rushmc 23]

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Unions promote mediocre behavior at best!!!

Have you ever considered that not all unions are alike?

The big ones have proven they are

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Maybe in the unions you've belonged to

Newsflash to the rather green moderator. I have never belonged to a union, I have never felt the need to be in one and I highly doubt I will ever join one. You know some people can operate negotiating with business as independents and some people don't need the MOB mentality of a union to get ahead in life.

Unions promote mediocre behavior at best!!!

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over