Whu is it ok for Muslims to burn the American Flag and not ok to burn the Quran?

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

Never realized the American flag had religious meaning.
As much as it means in my heart, it's clearly not the same to some people as religious writings purportedly handed down "directly from above".

I don't see a similarity.

Really?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

The other is; "Wow, look at that - those Americans have the freedom to do and say unpopular things, and no one tries to jail them or kill them over it! That's quite an amazing free society they have!"

I'm sure that's exactly how the Taliban will spin it to the uneducated and isolated people in the tribal regions.

Well, they beat people with sticks for simply staying clean-shaven, and paint house windows black so that men can't see the women inside, so why should we change our society in consideration for their beliefs?

[DanG 1]

Who said that we should change our society? If the ultimate end game is that our two societies become more alike to the point that we understand each other, I'd prefer that their society adapt to be more like ours. That will only happen if we show them our best, not our worst.

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

Who said that we should change our society? If the ultimate end game is that our two societies become more alike to the point that we understand each other, I'd prefer that their society adapt to be more like ours. That will only happen if we show them our best, not our worst.

You verify his statement by your own response.

In other words - You did.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

Is English difficult for everyone on the extreme right, or just the people who post here?

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

Is English difficult for everyone on the extreme right, or just the people who post here?

No more difficult than it is for those on the extreme left, I suppose.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Who said that we should change our society? If the ultimate end game is that our two societies become more alike to the point that we understand each other, I'd prefer that their society adapt to be more like ours. That will only happen if we show them our best, not our worst.

Our best is that we proteect the rights of even our worst. Besides, aren;t you one of the folks that always shouts about how the acts of a few psychos (jihadis) shouldn't be used to define an entire huge group(Muslims)? Apply that same logic here. Don't use the acts of one group of fuckwits in Florida to define our entire country. And if the jihadis can't figure that out, well, there isn't anything we can do to change their mind.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[DanG 1]

Quote

And if the jihadis can't figure that out, well, there isn't anything we can do to change their mind.

No, we can change their mind. I think that these idiots should have the right to burn the Koran. I also think the rest of us, including our elected leaders, need to speak out against their actions and make it known that we don't support such nonsense. Posters up thread were complaining about the government asking (not ordering, asking) the church not to do the burning. Those posters don't get it. The government has every right, and indeed a responsibility, to speak out against this. On the other hand, I'd be the first in line to vote against a law that prevented book burning.

Making something criminal and speaking out against it are not the same thing.

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

Quote

And if the jihadis can't figure that out, well, there isn't anything we can do to change their mind.

No, we can change their mind. I think that these idiots should have the right to burn the Koran. I also think the rest of us, including our elected leaders, need to speak out against their actions and make it known that we don't support such nonsense. Posters up thread were complaining about the government asking (not ordering, asking) the church not to do the burning. Those posters don't get it. The government has every right, and indeed a responsibility, to speak out against this. On the other hand, I'd be the first in line to vote against a law that prevented book burning.

Making something criminal and speaking out against it are not the same thing.

Hmm . . . sounds like my argument regarding the Mosque at Ground Zero.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

If your argument is that they should be allowed to build it but that you find it distatseful, I'm fine with that.

People keep quoting polls that say X percentage of people who are against the mosque still believe they should have the right to build it. I'm cool with that. It's the (100-X)% people I have a problem with.

My argument here is that the Florida church should have the right to burn the Koran, but that we should do everything we can to convince them not to, or at least express our disgust at the idea. How do you feel about that?

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Because extremist muslims threaten to kill us if we don't behave in the manner they wish. So we must submit to their threats and not exercise our free expression rights as Americans, in order to appease them, in the hopes that they then won't kill us. In this manner, all they have to do to destroy our constitutional rights is to continue threatening to kill us. And the more we give in, they more they'll be encouraged to expand their threats, to get us to do what they want.

You have very eloquently expressed how many Iraqis must have felt prior to the last invasion. Also how many other countries feel about being told what they can and cannot do.

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

If your argument is that they should be allowed to build it but that you find it distatseful, I'm fine with that.

People keep quoting polls that say X percentage of people who are against the mosque still believe they should have the right to build it. I'm cool with that. It's the (100-X)% people I have a problem with.

My argument here is that the Florida church should have the right to burn the Koran, but that we should do everything we can to convince them not to, or at least express our disgust at the idea. How do you feel about that?

Evidently we agree - now are you going to say the same about the mosque?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[DanG 1]

Quote

Evidently we agree - now are you going to say the same about the mosque?

Already have.

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

Quote

Evidently we agree - now are you going to say the same about the mosque?

Already have.

So your stance is that the goverment has the responsibility to dissuade the building, but not prevent it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I'm not sure anyone (apart from crazy muslims, obviously) is suggesting that it's ok to burn flags but not korans. I think most people would look at the two in exactly the same way - you're allowed to do it but you're basically just being a dick.

yup - it's merely a property rights issue, just the statements are very offensive to some

burn a flag -
put a cross in a glass of urine -
burn a koran -
burn a bible -
build a mosque near a sensitive historical site -
put any of the above into a pile of manure

etc
etc
etc

I don't agree with people that do any of this stuff and they pretend to call it speech, or art, or whatever - I just find them to be bigotted, offensive, idiots grinding their axes in the most ineffective manner (thus they are also stupid as well since they only get negative results)

however, I'll still support they rights to do whatever they want with their personal property

Isn't that the real test? - support the law, even when you find it personally offensive?

It's easy when you are sympathetic, tougher when you aren't.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

So your stance is that the goverment has the responsibility to dissuade the building, but not prevent it.

I don't have that stance.

the government has the responsibility to uphold the law. and that's it - so I only agree with your last half of the statemet

value judgments should be left up to the individual

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

Quote

So your stance is that the goverment has the responsibility to dissuade the building, but not prevent it.

Actually, the two issues are not similar at all in that sense. The intent of buring the Koran is to piss Muslims off. That's not an unfortunate side effect, it's the whole purpose. The government has a responsibility to state that being anti-Islam is not what America is about. The intent of building the community center (with mosque inside) is to provide a place of worship and inter-faith fraternity. The fact that a small group of people became pissed off about it after a right wing blogger made it an issue is an unfortunate side effect. The government has no responsibility to speak out against the building of the mosque.

I now await your one liner about how the real purpose of the community center is to declare victory over America. Or some such nonsense.

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

Quote

So your stance is that the goverment has the responsibility to dissuade the building, but not prevent it.

Actually, the two issues are not similar at all in that sense. The intent of buring the Koran is to piss Muslims off. That's not an unfortunate side effect, it's the whole purpose. The government has a responsibility to state that being anti-Islam is not what America is about. The intent of building the community center (with mosque inside) is to provide a place of worship and inter-faith fraternity. The fact that a small group of people became pissed off about it after a right wing blogger made it an issue is an unfortunate side effect. The government has no responsibility to speak out against the building of the mosque.

I now await your one liner about how the real purpose of the community center is to declare victory over America. Or some such nonsense.

The thing is - it has now come to a point where the only possible action here is piss off people or move. They are choosing to piss people off. That is not a community oriented deceision, it is a similar decision to knowing that it will piss people off if a book is burned, and still doing it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jakee 1,500]

Quote

The thing is - it has now come to a point where the only possible action here is piss off people or move. They are choosing to piss people off. That is not a community oriented deceision, it is a similar decision to knowing that it will piss people off if a book is burned, and still doing it.

Bollocks. The really vocal pissed off people will stay pissed off whether they stay or move. They're too deep in to stop now. I mean, what are they going to say - "Oh good, you're moving, well that's great - good luck at the new spot! All that stuff about your terrorist connections and dodgy financiers, we'll say no more about it, we've had a bit of a think and we've decided you're probably on the level after all!"

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[turtlespeed 221]

Quote

Quote

The thing is - it has now come to a point where the only possible action here is piss off people or move. They are choosing to piss people off. That is not a community oriented deceision, it is a similar decision to knowing that it will piss people off if a book is burned, and still doing it.

Bollocks. The really vocal pissed off people will stay pissed off whether they stay or move. They're too deep in to stop now. I mean, what are they going to say - "Oh good, you're moving, well that's great - good luck at the new spot! All that stuff about your terrorist connections and dodgy financiers, we'll say no more about it, we've had a bit of a think and we've decided you're probably on the level after all!"

It is going to be interesting to find out just how dodgy the finances actually are.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

The thing is - it has now come to a point where the only possible action here is piss off people or move. They are choosing to piss people off. That is not a community oriented deceision, it is a similar decision to knowing that it will piss people off if a book is burned, and still doing it.

the other difference - is also one group that gets pissed promise to kill a bunch of people to deal with their tantrums. The other group of people plan to just get really pissed and become politically active and maybe hold a few protests (to deal with THEIR tantrum).

you can't compare them

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,998]

>The thing is - it has now come to a point where the only possible action
>here is piss off people or move.

Yes, they will indeed piss you off.

However, the other choice they have is build the mosque where it was approved and support what their neighbors in Manhattan want, or not build and piss _them_ off. If I were them, I'd be more interested than the feelings of their neighbors than the feelings of some people on a Canadian skydiving forum.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>The thing is - it has now come to a point where the only possible action
>here is piss off people or move.

Yes, they will indeed piss you off.

However, the other choice they have is build the mosque where it was approved and support what their neighbors in Manhattan want, or not build and piss _them_ off. If I were them, I'd be more interested than the feelings of their neighbors than the feelings of some people on a Canadian skydiving forum.

why so stuck on what the neighbors think?

If he owns the property, and the law says he can build, then he has the right to build - regardless of what his neighbors think. That goes for the neighbors next door, or the neighbors in the next few states or whatever

I don't see why any poll matters no matter how close the pollees live.... law and property rights only matter here

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,998]

>why so stuck on what the neighbors think?

I guess it's just me. If I were remodeling my house, I'd care what the neighbors thought about it, and might change the plans if they had a real beef with something I was doing. Or I might not, but I'd at least want to hear what they thought - since they're friends of mine, it affects them, and we see each other every day. Because of that they are more important than some people in Texas who might not like me remodeling my house.

>If he owns the property, and the law says he can build, then he has the right
>to build . . .

Agreed.

[rehmwa 2]

yeah, but how many people in Manhattan know any "neighbors" that live more than 50 feet from their house/condo/apartment/studio/cubelet?

they just as well be in Texas or California or Canada or whatever state you want to imply a general stereotype of bigotry against

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants