billvon 2,995 #76 September 8, 2010 >Yeah, but how many people in Manhattan know any neighbors that live >more than 50 feet from their house/condo/apartment/studio/cubelet? Good point. I guess you'd get a range of people, from the scary hermit who never comes out of his room to Barbara's old neighbor, who seemed to know all the dietary, religious and sexual habits of everyone within ten blocks of her building. (And if she didn't she'd just make em up.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
missg8tordivr 0 #77 September 8, 2010 Jones Interview Jones is a Extremist Christian, who clearly does not understand the true teachings of Christianity. He is not only pissing off the Extremist Islamic groups, but he is also ticking off many people of various religions as well as US Citizens (religious or not). I understand the point he is trying to get across about enough being enough, but the fact of the matter is he is going about it the wrong way and putting a lot of people at unnecessary risk. *** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #78 September 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteSo your stance is that the goverment has the responsibility to dissuade the building, but not prevent it.Actually, the two issues are not similar at all in that sense. The intent of buring the Koran is to piss Muslims off. That's not an unfortunate side effect, it's the whole purpose. The government has a responsibility to state that being anti-Islam is not what America is about. The intent of building the community center (with mosque inside) is to provide a place of worship and inter-faith fraternity. The fact that a small group of people became pissed off about it after a right wing blogger made it an issue is an unfortunate side effect. The government has no responsibility to speak out against the building of the mosque.I now await your one liner about how the real purpose of the community center is to declare victory over America. Or some such nonsense. in a previous post did you say we can change their mind?in this post you state the intent of the mosque advocates , how do you know their intent ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #79 September 8, 2010 Quotein a previous post did you say we can change their mind? Yes. Quotein this post you state the intent of the mosque advocates , how do you know their intent ? It's on their website and they have stated so in interviews. NB: CNN is doing a live interview with the Imam tonight at 9pm. I'm guessing he might talk about his intent then, too. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #80 September 9, 2010 QuoteQuote>The thing is - it has now come to a point where the only possible action >here is piss off people or move. Yes, they will indeed piss you off. However, the other choice they have is build the mosque where it was approved and support what their neighbors in Manhattan want, or not build and piss _them_ off. If I were them, I'd be more interested than the feelings of their neighbors than the feelings of some people on a Canadian skydiving forum. why so stuck on what the neighbors think? If he owns the property, and the law says he can build, then he has the right to build - regardless of what his neighbors think. That goes for the neighbors next door, or the neighbors in the next few states or whatever I don't see why any poll matters no matter how close the pollees live.... law and property rights only matter here And the same goes for Jones burning the Koran, right?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #81 September 9, 2010 QuoteSome wacky Baptists want to burn some Qurans on Saturday. The American flag is burned all the time in Muslim dominated countries. We have freedom of religion in this country. We have freedom of speech AND freedom of expression. These guys are just expressing themselves. Our Govt. is asking them not to do it. We don't want to upset Muslim nations. We don't wany to endanger out soldiers they say. Really? Or own Govt. asking its own citizens to NOT to exercise their Freedom of Expression so that we dont upset people in another country. It's still ok to burn the Quran, Bible or American flag, it's just not prudent to do so this publicly when Americans/troops are at risk. This loon could have privately done this, but he's an attention whore and that's the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #82 September 9, 2010 QuoteQuotein a previous post did you say we can change their mind? Yes.Quotein this post you state the intent of the mosque advocates , how do you know their intent ? It's on their website and they have stated so in interviews. NB: CNN is doing a live interview with the Imam tonight at 9pm. I'm guessing he might talk about his intent then, too.a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion stillconsider how difficult it would be to change your mind of your strongly held beliefs and knowledge basepersons can change but hardly ever dostated intent is very often quite different than honest intent ESPECIALLY with muslims dealing with infidels . but actions are quite another thing . their actions are in stark contrast to their stated intent . you may be their ally , they most assuredly are not yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #83 September 9, 2010 Quotestated intent is very often quite different than honest intent ESPECIALLY with muslims dealing with infidels . but actions are quite another thing . their actions are in stark contrast to their stated intent . you may be their ally , they most assuredly are not yours. Golly. I'm not sure how to respond. I take this as meaning that Muslims are not trustworthy. Is that what you mean? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #84 September 10, 2010 QuoteQuotestated intent is very often quite different than honest intent ESPECIALLY with muslims dealing with infidels . but actions are quite another thing . their actions are in stark contrast to their stated intent . you may be their ally , they most assuredly are not yours. Golly. I'm not sure how to respond. I take this as meaning that Muslims are not trustworthy. Is that what you mean?thank you for the compliment trust is best when trust is earnedtrust but verify in answer to your question a qualified yeshistory has repeatedly shown muslims to be untrustworthy towards infidels the more closely a muslim adheres to islam the less they should be trusted by infidelsor trust them at your peril ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,995 #85 September 10, 2010 So you judge Muslims based purely on their religion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #86 September 10, 2010 QuoteSo you judge Muslims based purely on their religion? Why not - you judge people based purely on their political views.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #87 September 10, 2010 We should be telling Muslims that citizens in Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran/wherever should also be free to burn the quran without fear of punishment. They should be told that such TOLERANCE is essential for freedom. They should be told that freedom of speech/expression is meaningless unless very unpopular speech/expression is allowed.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #88 September 10, 2010 QuoteWe should be telling Muslims that citizens in Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran/wherever should also be free to burn the quran without fear of punishment. They should be told that such TOLERANCE is essential for freedom. They should be told that freedom of speech/expression is meaningless unless very unpopular speech/expression is allowed. What about TOLERANCE for people and countries who do not want to be like Americans? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,497 #89 September 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteWe should be telling Muslims that citizens in Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran/wherever should also be free to burn the quran without fear of punishment. They should be told that such TOLERANCE is essential for freedom. They should be told that freedom of speech/expression is meaningless unless very unpopular speech/expression is allowed. What about TOLERANCE for people and countries who do not want to be like Americans? What you actually mean there, is tolerance for people who want to force everyone else in their respective countries to live with the same restrictions on fundamental human rights as they want to. Here's my tolerance for those people: Fuck 'em. Human rights are human rights are human rights, whether in the US, Western Europe or even the Middle East.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 479 #90 September 10, 2010 Quote Quote Quote We should be telling Muslims that citizens in Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran/wherever should also be free to burn the quran without fear of punishment. They should be told that such TOLERANCE is essential for freedom. They should be told that freedom of speech/expression is meaningless unless very unpopular speech/expression is allowed. What about TOLERANCE for people and countries who do not want to be like Americans? What you actually mean there, is tolerance for people who want to force everyone else in their respective countries to live with the same restrictions on fundamental human rights as they want to. Here's my tolerance for those people: Fuck 'em. Human rights are human rights are human rights, whether in the US, Western Europe or even the Middle East. Wouldn't that be rapeExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #91 September 10, 2010 QuoteWhat you actually mean there, is tolerance for people who want to force everyone else in their respective countries to live with the same restrictions on fundamental human rights as they want to. No, that's not what I meant. Some people are comfortable with restrictions on freedoms that Americans are not comfortable with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,497 #92 September 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhat you actually mean there, is tolerance for people who want to force everyone else in their respective countries to live with the same restrictions on fundamental human rights as they want to. No, that's not what I meant. Yes, that is what you meant. You may not want to acknowledge the implications of your statement, but they exist nevertheless. QuoteSome people are comfortable with restrictions on freedoms that Americans are not comfortable with. And I repeat, Fuck 'em. The people that are happy with not utilising their human rights do not get to decide that no-one else should be allowed to utilise their human rights.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #93 September 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteSo you judge Muslims based purely on their religion? Why not - you judge people based purely on their political views. but, political views are religion to most people........ would be easier to judge individuals by their actions, and not these idiotic and subjectively defined groups they get to be stereotyped in. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
missg8tordivr 0 #94 September 10, 2010 Quote Quote Quote stated intent is very often quite different than honest intent ESPECIALLY with muslims dealing with infidels . but actions are quite another thing . their actions are in stark contrast to their stated intent . you may be their ally , they most assuredly are not yours. Golly. I'm not sure how to respond. I take this as meaning that Muslims are not trustworthy. Is that what you mean? in answer to your question a qualified yes history has repeatedly shown muslims to be untrustworthy towards infidels the more closely a muslim adheres to islam the less they should be trusted by infidels or trust them at your peril ! Throughout history you can pick any faith, any sex, any race, any political view, etc and show that they all have been considered untrustworthy. However, holding onto that past without learning from these moments will only keep the human race divided. It is what we can do here and now, as well as the future, to take steps towards mending those errors that will move us towards peace and understanding. People are always going to have their own opinions, it is human nature. However, we also have the capability to control our own actions and take responsibility for those actions. Focusing on the negative, will always result in negative actions/consequences. Why not try to start focusing on the positive.....it takes time and patience, but it will make the world a better place. *** F LORIDA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #95 September 10, 2010 QuoteThe people that are happy with not utilising their human rights do not get to decide that no-one else should be allowed to utilise their human rights. I'm not specifically talking Human Rights. The rest of your post is drivel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #96 September 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe people that are happy with not utilising their human rights do not get to decide that no-one else should be allowed to utilise their human rights. I'm not specifically talking Human Rights. The rest of your post is drivel. You cannot have a logical bearing argument about that subject without Human Rights being the fundamental topic.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #97 September 10, 2010 QuoteYou cannot have a logical bearing argument about that subject without Human Rights being the fundamental topic. Sure you can. Free Speech and Freedom of Expression is restricted in all countries around the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,497 #98 September 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe people that are happy with not utilising their human rights do not get to decide that no-one else should be allowed to utilise their human rights. I'm not specifically talking Human Rights. Then your reply to sundevil was an irrelevant non-sequitur. QuoteThe rest of your post is drivel. My understanding of your point is based on the assumption that your reply has something to do with the post you were replying to. If you are in fact replying to something that has occured not on the screen but in your own head, then people will have trouble figuring out what the hell you're talking about.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #99 September 10, 2010 Quote Quote You cannot have a logical bearing argument about that subject without Human Rights being the fundamental topic. Sure you can. Free Speech and Freedom of Expression is restricted in all countries around the world. Perhaps THAT is the problem then..... trying to drag idiots kicking and screaming into the 21st Century is just not going to be easy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #100 September 10, 2010 QuoteThey should be told that freedom of speech/expression is meaningless unless very unpopular speech/expression is allowed. You are right, he was clearly specifically taking about Human Rights in the post I replied to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
