turtlespeed 220 #76 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuote The problem you're having is that you assumed I made such an argument. I didn't. Therefore, since the premise of your criticism is false, everything which follows is wrong. No, the problem is you apparently lost the ability to read English shortly after titling this thread. Which is a shame, because this is something a grade schooler can understand. You should have ended your post with "neener neener"I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #77 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe problem you're having is that you assumed I made such an argument. I didn't. Therefore, since the premise of your criticism is false, everything which follows is wrong.No, the problem is you apparently lost the ability to read English shortly after titling this thread. Which is a shame, because this is something a grade schooler can understand.apparent to who(m) ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #78 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuotein this thread, you posted evidence that proves "More Guns, More Crime." Quote: "Since 1991, when total violent crime peaked, it has decreased 43 percent to a 35-year low. The murder rate, less than half what it was in 1980, is now at a 45-year low. Throughout, the number of guns that Americans own has risen by about four million a year...See attached chart. It completely baffles me how you could look at this data and conclude that it proves "more guns equals more crime". If you respond, please try and do so without insults. So do you have any good numbers for Chicago now that handguns are legal here? From what they have been telling us the numbers are up across the board on violent crimes. Just last night there were 10 shootings over night on a cool Monday evening._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #79 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuotein this thread, you posted evidence that proves "More Guns, More Crime." Quote: "Since 1991, when total violent crime peaked, it has decreased 43 percent to a 35-year low. The murder rate, less than half what it was in 1980, is now at a 45-year low. Throughout, the number of guns that Americans own has risen by about four million a year...See attached chart. It completely baffles me how you could look at this data and conclude that it proves "more guns equals more crime". If you respond, please try and do so without insults. So do you have any good numbers for Chicago now that handguns are legal here? From what they have been telling us the numbers are up across the board on violent crimes. Just last night there were 10 shootings over night on a cool Monday evening. Ah legal does not mean accessable"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #80 September 22, 2010 Quote Ah legal does not mean accessable This is not the information I was asking for, nor was it a condition supplied in the original post._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #81 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuote Ah legal does not mean accessable This is not the information I was asking for, nor was it a condition supplied in the original post. Ok, it was not what you asked for but it is highly relavant"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #82 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote Ah legal does not mean accessable This is not the information I was asking for, nor was it a condition supplied in the original post. Ok, it was not what you asked for but it is highly relavant Then it should have also been supplied by the OP, as should have all the additional information I asked for in this thread earlier. If my line of thinking is invalid then the entire point of this thread is invalid and it's propaganda instead of statistical data._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #83 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Ah legal does not mean accessable This is not the information I was asking for, nor was it a condition supplied in the original post. Ok, it was not what you asked for but it is highly relavant Then it should have also been supplied by the OP, as should have all the additional information I asked for in this thread earlier. If my line of thinking is invalid then the entire point of this thread is invalid and it's propaganda instead of statistical data. Well it is nice you have an opinion"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #84 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Ah legal does not mean accessable This is not the information I was asking for, nor was it a condition supplied in the original post. Ok, it was not what you asked for but it is highly relavant Then it should have also been supplied by the OP, as should have all the additional information I asked for in this thread earlier. If my line of thinking is invalid then the entire point of this thread is invalid and it's propaganda instead of statistical data. Well it is nice you have an opinion Wanting to develop and display relational data is fact and brings about better conclusions that are free of opinion. This is what I'm looking for; proving the correlation instead of making inflammatory statements or personal attacks._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #85 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Ah legal does not mean accessable This is not the information I was asking for, nor was it a condition supplied in the original post. Ok, it was not what you asked for but it is highly relavant Then it should have also been supplied by the OP, as should have all the additional information I asked for in this thread earlier. If my line of thinking is invalid then the entire point of this thread is invalid and it's propaganda instead of statistical data. Well it is nice you have an opinion Wanting to develop and display relational data is fact and brings about better conclusions that are free of opinion. This is what I'm looking for; proving the correlation instead of making inflammatory statements or personal attacks. Hmm I have not seen any of that in this thread"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #86 September 22, 2010 Quote Hmm I have not seen any of that in this thread Then look for the questions I asked. Simple A+B=C claims on a topic like this are typically poor conclusions. I also provided links to searchable murder history in two cities going back three years._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #87 September 22, 2010 Quote Quote Hmm I have not seen any of that in this thread Then look for the questions I asked. Simple A+B=C claims on a topic like this are typically poor conclusions. I also provided links to searchable murder history in two cities going back three years. Whooosh"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #88 September 22, 2010 Quote Whooosh No, I just don't care about strawman discussions. I'm looking for facts and won't be drawn into a distractions away from the original topic._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #89 September 22, 2010 Quote Quote Whooosh No, I just don't care about strawman discussions. I'm looking for facts and won't be drawn into a distractions away from the original topic. "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #90 September 22, 2010 Quote Quote Whooosh No, I just don't care about strawman discussions. I'm looking for facts and won't be drawn into a distractions away from the original topic. Except for the strawman that Chicago shootings would magically cease due to the decision in McDonald that allows Chicagoans to have handguns in their homes, perhaps...or were you implying something different, upthread?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,444 #91 September 22, 2010 It sounds like he's trying to get data, and find out if the current Chicago situation is being reported accurately by the locals. Is getting data so bad? That's what making decisions is about, isn't it? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #92 September 22, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Whooosh No, I just don't care about strawman discussions. I'm looking for facts and won't be drawn into a distractions away from the original topic. Except for the strawman that Chicago shootings would magically cease due to the decision in McDonald that allows Chicagoans to have handguns in their homes, perhaps...or were you implying something different, upthread? Except with the data provided you could present the information in more than one way, including home based crimes. Heck, it could make the NRA happy to push for conceal laws if the data came out right. Data is data and it ALL needs to be collected._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #93 September 22, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Whooosh No, I just don't care about strawman discussions. I'm looking for facts and won't be drawn into a distractions away from the original topic. Except for the strawman that Chicago shootings would magically cease due to the decision in McDonald that allows Chicagoans to have handguns in their homes, perhaps...or were you implying something different, upthread? Except with the data provided you could present the information in more than one way, including home based crimes. Heck, it could make the NRA happy to push for conceal laws if the data came out right. Data is data and it ALL needs to be collected. Feel free to do just that, then. FBI UCR and the Dept. of Labor has at least some of the information you're demanding of an opinion piece, but you're going to have to datamine the finer granularity yourself.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #94 September 22, 2010 QuoteSo do you have any good numbers for Chicago now that handguns are legal here? From what they have been telling us the numbers are up across the board on violent crimes. Just last night there were 10 shootings over night on a cool Monday evening. Handgun ownership in Chicago has only been permissible now for several months, and there are so many obstacles to complying with the new rules, that probably very few people have been able to avail themselves of this new freedom. For example, they require that you prove shooting proficiency to be licensed, while at the same time banning all shooting ranges from the city. Nice, eh? Chicago's new restrictions are being challenged again in court. Give this situation a few years, when law-abiding citizens with handguns start to become expected in Chicago, when criminals thus begin to fear victims who shoot back, and who knows what could happen. Those same kind of horrific shooting sprees have been going on for many years, under Daley's complete handgun ban. So it's obvious that a complete ban, does not stop criminals. And given that, it only makes sense to allow honest citizens the means to defend themselves from the criminals who ignore the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #95 September 22, 2010 QuoteGive this situation a few years, when law-abiding citizens with handguns start to become expected in Chicago, when criminals thus begin to fear victims who shoot back, and who knows what could happen. Should docters and ailing mothers then become more fearful of getting shot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #96 September 22, 2010 QuoteQuoteGive this situation a few years, when law-abiding citizens with handguns start to become expected in Chicago, when criminals thus begin to fear victims who shoot back, and who knows what could happen. Should docters and ailing mothers then become more fearful of getting shot? No.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #97 September 22, 2010 Quote Then it should have also been supplied by the OP, as should have all the additional information I asked for in this thread earlier. If my line of thinking is invalid then the entire point of this thread is invalid and it's propaganda instead of statistical data. so what I see you saying is that your point in asking, but not wanting context is to generate propaganda.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #98 September 22, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Hmm I have not seen any of that in this thread Then look for the questions I asked. Simple A+B=C claims on a topic like this are typically poor conclusions. I also provided links to searchable murder history in two cities going back three years. Whooosh Actually, that jet is flying over your head, if I understand his line of attack correctly. He points out that only looking at the last data point (10 shot) is piss poor science. Which is the same point I have tried to make to John. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #99 September 22, 2010 QuoteHe points out that only looking at the last data point (10 shot) is piss poor science. Which is the same point I have tried to make to John. You're still ignoring message #27: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3954047;#3954352 This is just more evidence that my detractors will only see what they want to see, rather than what I actually say. But I must congratulate you on making a post about me, without including a personal insult. That's better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #100 September 22, 2010 As I said before, data is data and in this era of information it should all be collected and displayed. The biggest problem I have with both sides of the gun debate is that PR-like firms have decided what information gets disseminated and after 50 years of that people believe it's the correct way to look at it. It's like in baseball where people believe that the W-L record of a pitcher or the BA of a player is the best way to measure a player. But after the introduction of sabremetrics those perceptions have been blown away by looking at the bigger picture and presenting all of the data and showing true trends. I believe the same thing could be done here._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
