Israel used 'incredible violence' against Gaza aid flotilla

[wmw999 2,447]

The Irish troubles only really simmered down after a negotiated peace. No one was overwhelmed. I'm going to submit that, particularly with a fairly embedded "enemy" it's the only real way to end up with peace.

No one plays fair in war. But because the other side did it first isn't a great defense in any case -- you want to decide what your long-term goal is and work towards that. Making your enemy sorry he ever doubted your inherent superiority, goodness, etc. is not a long-term goal.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Skyrad 0]

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The Irish troubles only really simmered down after a negotiated peace. No one was overwhelmed.

The troubles are far from over.

https://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/the-threat-to-national-security.html

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[dreamdancer 0]

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Mr Abbas has repeatedly said he will break off talks if settlement building resumes, while Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, whose coalition includes pro-settler parties, has resisted US pressure to extend the freeze.

Amid mounting fears of an imminent Palestinian withdrawal from the talks, Mrs Clinton took charge of an intensified diplomatic drive to bridge the gaps between the two sides.

But with time rapidly running out before the expiry of the partial moratorium on Jewish building in the West Bank, she failed to persuade Mr Abbas of the merits of an Israeli proposal to limit new settlement construction.

After talks in New York on Friday evening, Mr Abbas told reporters that he has heard "nothing new" from Mrs Clinton. There were conflicting reports about whether the two would meet again later on Saturday.

Under pressure from Washington, Israeli officials are understood to have offered to build only in larger West Bank settlements that Israel hopes to annex in a land-swap if a peace deal is reached.

But Palestinian negotiators have dismissed the offer and Mr Abbas is under intense domestic pressure to stand firm after facing ridicule from his people for twice yielding to Israel during rows over settlements over the past 12 months.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8025016/Hillary-Clinton-makes-last-ditch-effort-to-save-Middle-East-peace-talks.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[muff528 3]

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...........Would you contend that if Israel pulled completely out of Gaza, the West Bank, and Golan Heights that attacks on Israel would stop?

Of Course the attacks would stop. There were no attacks on Israel before these territories were stolen.

[danornan 79]

Tony, Choose to believe what you wish.....

From an interview with British Television.....

Netanyahu at his best

Even those who aren't particularly sympathetic to Israel 's Benjamin Netanyahu, could get a good measure of satisfaction from this interview with British Television during the retaliation against Hamas' shelling of Israel

The interviewer asked him: "How come so many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis?" (A nasty question if there ever was
one!)

Netanyahu: "Are you sure that you want to start asking in that direction?"

Interviewer: (Falling into the trap) Why not?

Netanyahu: "Because in World War II more Germans were killed than British and Americans combined, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that the war was caused by Germany 's aggression. And in response to the German blitz on London , the British wiped out the entire city of Dresden , burning to death more German civilians than the number of people killed in Hiroshima ... Moreover, I could remind you that in 1944, when the R.A.F. tried to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters in Copenhagen , some of the bombs missed their target and fell on a Danish children's hospital, killing 83 little children. Perhaps you have another question?"

Apparently, Benjamin Netanyahu gave another interview and was asked about Israel 's occupation of Arab lands. His response was, "It's our land". The reporter (CNN or the like) was stunned - read below "It's our land..." It's important information since we don't get fair and accurate reporting from the media and facts tend to get lost in the jumble of daily events.

"Crash Course on the Arab-Israeli Conflict."

Here are overlooked facts in the current & past Middle East situation. These were compiled by a Christian university professor:

BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY... (It takes just 1.5 minutes to
read!)

It makes sense and it's not slanted. Jew and non-Jew -- it doesn't matter.


1. Nationhood and Jerusalem : Israel became a nation in 1312 BC, two thousand (2000) years before the rise of Islam.

2... Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BC, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand (1000) years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem
has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem , they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem . Mohammed never came to Jerusalem .

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem . Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem .

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews . Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else.


10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel , a country no larger than the state of New Jersey ...

13. The Arab-Israeli Conflict: the Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation.
The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself
each time and won.

14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel . Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel .

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel .

18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives .

20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren about what we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference?

Dano

[muff528 3]

Dan, Dan, Dan.... did you see the "crazyface" after my reply? (we really do need a dedicated "sarcasm face")
edit to add: I personally believe that if Israel does evacuate these areas that they will be committing suicide as a nation ... for several reasons. Leaving "right or wrong" aside, the reality is that Israel, as a state, needs these areas for "security zones" and, more importantly, for expansion. The population will grow over the years whether anyone likes it or not and they have to go somewhere. I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel, did not foresee the natural need for growth .... unless their motivation for creating Israel was to sweep a post-war "problem" under the table for expediency's sake. Boatloads of Jewish refugees were denied entrance into the liberating Allied countries after the war. ... so the UN, in all their wisdom, cleared a spot in the Levant to put them, thinking that the "Jewish Problem" was solved as far as they were concerned.

[dreamdancer 0]

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Andy9o8 2]

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

They didn't.

1947 UN partition of Palestine

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The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine was a resolution adopted by the General Assembly on 29 November 1947 by a vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions.[1]

The resolution recommended the termination of the British Mandate for Palestine and the partition of the territory into two states, one Jewish and one Arab

[masterblaster72 0]

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

What do you think of Dan's 20 points ilsted upthread?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[dreamdancer 0]

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

They didn't.

1947 UN partition of Palestine

Quote

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine was a resolution adopted by the General Assembly on 29 November 1947 by a vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions.[1]

The resolution recommended the termination of the British Mandate for Palestine and the partition of the territory into two states, one Jewish and one Arab

so jerusalem could be the palestinian capital?

(and all the palestinian refugees can return)

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

What do you think of Dan's 20 points ilsted upthread?

he didn't write them.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Andy9o8 2]

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Quote

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

They didn't.

1947 UN partition of Palestine

Quote

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine was a resolution adopted by the General Assembly on 29 November 1947 by a vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions.[1]

The resolution recommended the termination of the British Mandate for Palestine and the partition of the territory into two states, one Jewish and one Arab

so jerusalem could be the palestinian capital?

(and all the palestinian refugees can return)

You got caught fibbing about this again.
No matter. Go ahead and dance.

[masterblaster72 0]

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

What do you think of Dan's 20 points ilsted upthread?

he didn't write them.

Slick cop-out there fella.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Quote

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

They didn't.

1947 UN partition of Palestine

Quote

The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) Future Government of Palestine was a resolution adopted by the General Assembly on 29 November 1947 by a vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions.[1]

The resolution recommended the termination of the British Mandate for Palestine and the partition of the territory into two states, one Jewish and one Arab

so jerusalem could be the palestinian capital?

(and all the palestinian refugees can return)

You got caught fibbing about this again.
No matter. Go ahead and dance.

learn a little...

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The bombing of the King David Hotel occurred in July 1946 and some saw it as a pivotal moment in recent Middle East history. The King David Hotel was the site for the British Military Command in Palestine. It also served as the headquarters of the British Criminal Investigation Division. The bombing of the hotel galvanised the British into realising that their time in Palestine was coming to an end.

On June 29th 1946, the British unexpectedly entered the premises of the Jewish Agency and took away with them a large number of documents – some of which were deemed to be sensitive. All the documents were taken to the King David Hotel where they were to be assessed by intelligence analysts. At around the same time, the British arrested 2,500 Jews in Palestine. Irgun, a Jewish secret organisation (deemed to be a terrorist group by the British) decided to target the hotel for vengeance and also as a way of destroying the documents that had been taken by the British.

The leader of Irgun, Menachem Begin, claimed that Irgun saw the hotel solely as a military building – and therefore a legitimate target. Begin claimed that three warnings were sent out on July 22nd 1946 about the planned attack to keep casualties to the minimum. Begin claimed that three phone calls were made to a) to the French Consulate b) to the hotel itself and c) to the "Palestine Post".

Any warnings were to no avail. The British did not evacuate the hotel and the bombing killed 91 people and injured 45. Ironically, few people in the hotel itself were killed – and Jews were among the casualties.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_of_the_king_david_hotel.htm

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Amazon 7]

YES.. we get it....as a BRIT.... you are STILL all BUTT HURTabout being shown the door after getting the get the FUCK out of ISRAEL card from Menachem.

[Andy9o8 2]

Keep dancing.
You still fibbed. Again. Period.

[dreamdancer 0]

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YES.. we get it....as a BRIT.... you are STILL all BUTT HURTabout being shown the door after getting the get the FUCK out of ISRAEL card from Menachem.

i wasn't even alive at the time and certainly don't take nationalism as seriously as you do
meanwhile who was bombing who to get their shiny new state?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Amazon 7]

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YES.. we get it....as a BRIT.... you are STILL all BUTT HURTabout being shown the door after getting the get the FUCK out of ISRAEL card from Menachem.

i wasn't even alive at the time and certainly don't take nationalism as seriously as you do
meanwhile who was bombing who to get their shiny new state?

RIIIIGHT.... but it seems that moe than one BRIT who was not alive then sees it as a national slight against their empire... seems you guys had a few of those Perhaps if you had listened to people like Lawrence in WWI, you would have not not become embroiled there with the demise of Turkish rule.

People who wanted you the fuck out of their country did.... that kind of shit happens when you occupy places. Its kind of expected... kinda like what happens to us in Iraq.... Going into Iraq was JUST as goat fuck stupid as your country occupying the middle east was at the end of WWI.

[muff528 3]

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I find it hard to believe that the UN, in creating the modern state of Israel.

would refuse the palestinians the same right

OK, my point is that the UN, in all it's anti-semitic glory, did(does) not give a rat's ass about the Jews nor the Palestinians. They just wanted the refugee problem to go away so they could go on pretending to be some great intellectual "overseer" of the world's problems, passing resolutions and handing down decrees like the Wizard of OZ (no intended reference to the Aussies). None the "liberators" wanted the refugees to come to their country (although some of the displaced people were able to settle in various countries.) Also, there was significant persecution of the Jews, particularly in Eastern Europe, even after the war ended. The Israeli/Palestinian (or the greater Israeli/Islamic) conflict will now just play out as part of the history of the world and anyone who thinks it will (or can) be settled through mediated negotiations is just delusional. No matter how a map of the world looks after a "solution" is achieved it will certainly not be printed as the "final" edition.

[dreamdancer 0]

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People who wanted you the fuck out of their country did.... that kind of shit happens when you occupy places. Its kind of expected...

i'm also half irish so agree with you totally. now back to occupied palestine and what we should expect there...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[muff528 3]

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YES.. we get it....as a BRIT.... you are STILL all BUTT HURTabout being shown the door after getting the get the FUCK out of ISRAEL card from Menachem.

i wasn't even alive at the time and certainly don't take nationalism as seriously as you do
meanwhile who was bombing who to get their shiny new state?

Well...talking didn't get it. (you are talking about Ireland, aren't you? ...if not, just plug in just about any other new country at any other time in history).

[dreamdancer 0]

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YES.. we get it....as a BRIT.... you are STILL all BUTT HURTabout being shown the door after getting the get the FUCK out of ISRAEL card from Menachem.

i wasn't even alive at the time and certainly don't take nationalism as seriously as you do
meanwhile who was bombing who to get their shiny new state?

Well...talking didn't get it. (you are talking about Ireland, aren't you? ...if not, just plug in just about any other new country at any other time in history).

time to plug palestine in

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[muff528 3]

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Quote

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YES.. we get it....as a BRIT.... you are STILL all BUTT HURTabout being shown the door after getting the get the FUCK out of ISRAEL card from Menachem.

i wasn't even alive at the time and certainly don't take nationalism as seriously as you do
meanwhile who was bombing who to get their shiny new state?

Well...talking didn't get it. (you are talking about Ireland, aren't you? ...if not, just plug in just about any other new country at any other time in history).

time to plug palestine in

Well, they're using rockets right now but that's my point! But listen, even if the Israelis and Palestinians came to a peaceful, equitable agreement today, and if all citizens of both sides agreed, it won't be over for the Israelis. It ain't about the Palestinians. They are simply being used as pawns and as the forward echelon in the overall effort to rid the land of the Jews. The rest of the Middle East doesn't care about the plight of the Palestinians. They are just letting them take the heat for now while they sit back and cheer them on ...and maybe supply them with some crappy rockets once in awhile to show their support. The short-term objective here is to turn world opinion against Israel at the expense of the Palestinians. (IMO, of course)

Any negotiated settlement between Israel and the Palestinians will have to begin with the people themselves.

Also, I think Hillary is aware of the futility of playing mediator in the Middle East, even more so than Bill, but she is gonna need a Nobel Peace Prize of her own if she expects to challenge BHO in 2012. This is her best chance since she doesn't have to produce any real results (if precedent has any meaning). Trying to take on the genocide problem in east Africa would be too challenging for her and now that North Korea has flying traffic girls they won't want to negotiate at all.

[dreamdancer 0]

you're confusing the middle east with europe (it was hitler who tried to rid the world of jews not the palestinians).

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[turtlespeed 220]

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you're confusing the middle east with europe (it was hitler who tried to rid the world of jews not the palestinians).

Go ask Iran what they think.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun