doughboyshred 0 #76 September 28, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuotepeople would make different choices if the incentives were different. Losing a job is not a choice, and health coverage for a family of four would cost over a thousand dollars a month in most instances. A loss of income due to the financial issues the entire country is facing should not result complete destitution and loss of life. QuoteLosing a job is not a choiceLosing a job is a choice - evidently the person working the job did not work hard enough to make the job important enough to keep. I should not be forced to be responsible for other peoples failures and inadequacies. Quotehealth coverage for a family of four would cost over a thousand dollars a month in most instancesInsurance costs are not a 1000/mo - BASIC coverage which is what the goverment is touting is only about 300 dollars per month. Less if you only go with major medical. QuoteA loss of income due to the financial issues the entire country is facing should not result complete destitution and loss of life. Why should I be forced to give up the money that I worked for to support someone that cannot keep a job? I should not be forced to be responsible for other peoples failures and inadequacies. you're completely out of touch with the realities of todays job market. People are losing their work because of downsizing and closures, not because they didn't work hard enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #77 September 28, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote Nonsense. It's been clearly documented that illegal immigrants pay taxes. Typically they pay the same taxes most employees due but they don't file for refunds. Most undocumented workers use fake ss numbers to get employment, so they are taxed. They are also taxed through sales tax mechanisms, etc.. Suggesting they don't pay taxes is disingenuous. sales tax isn't the mechanism through which they'd be charged if they were to not buy the mandatory insurance package that will be required. they use fake SSN's so if they don't pay their federal income tax, who is the IRS going after? Some poor schmoe who is the victim of identity theft. Quote My point, however, is that refusing to treat them is morally wrong, and therefore not an option. Providing them help to obtain insurance is cheaper for the tax payer than providing them with ER care. This doesn't really matter though, because Republicans were able to ensure that the HCR bill didn't provide any insurance options for illegals. current law (in TX at least) ensures that the ER cannot turn anyone away. so I'm not saying turn them away, I'm pointing out that they can't be turned away. what insurance options would HCR have provided that couldn't be provided by a private insurance company? so I still ask... if, when mandatory insurance purchases come into effect, an illegal immigrant doesn't purchase their insurance, how are they going to be charged the penalty for that? Through their income taxes that are levied against a fake SSN? Income taxes are withheld from their paychecks. They don't file for refunds. Tax penalty for not obtaining health coverage comes out of the refund, which they are not filing for in the first place. ah... so you're just unaware of how withholding allowances work. not everyone gets refunds. Just those people that want to (or don't know that they are) make a zero-interest loan to the US government. You can declare 26 withholding allowances and the IRS will withhold zero funds from your paycheck for income tax.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doughboyshred 0 #78 September 28, 2010 Quote ah... so you're just unaware of how withholding allowances work. not everyone gets refunds. Just those people that want to (or don't know that they are) make a zero-interest loan to the US government. You can declare 26 withholding allowances and the IRS will withhold zero funds from your paycheck for income tax. This is true. Didn't think about that possibility. I doubt many illegals are working the system that way though. Remember their intent is to stay invisible, not end up in jail. QuoteThere is also a criminal penalty for supplying false information on your W-4. The penalty upon conviction can be a fine of up to $1,000 or up to one year imprisonment, or both. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #79 September 28, 2010 Quote QuoteThere is also a criminal penalty for supplying false information on your W-4. The penalty upon conviction can be a fine of up to $1,000 or up to one year imprisonment, or both. you mean like their false SSN? and there's nothing wrong with claiming 26 withholding allowances.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #80 September 28, 2010 QuoteQuoteah... so you're just unaware of how withholding allowances work. not everyone gets refunds. Just those people that want to (or don't know that they are) make a zero-interest loan to the US government. You can declare 26 withholding allowances and the IRS will withhold zero funds from your paycheck for income tax.This is true. Didn't think about that possibility. I doubt many illegals are working the system that way though. Remember their intent is to stay invisible, not end up in jail.QuoteThere is also a criminal penalty for supplying false information on your W-4. The penalty upon conviction can be a fine of up to $1,000 or up to one year imprisonment, or both.how would they end up in jail with fake documentation ? plus illegals are not usa's responsibility , even remotely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,071 #81 September 28, 2010 >and there's nothing wrong with claiming 26 withholding allowances. Other than the fines you get hit with for late payment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #82 September 28, 2010 Quote>Why should I be forced to give up the money that I worked for to >support someone that cannot keep a job? Same reason I am forced to give money - money I worked for - to support your desire for roads. Not true - the people that I am forced to support because of their inadequacies are not driven on. In fact if I used them the same way I would hve to go to jail. So, no. it is not the same.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doughboyshred 0 #83 September 28, 2010 QuoteQuote>Why should I be forced to give up the money that I worked for to >support someone that cannot keep a job? Same reason I am forced to give money - money I worked for - to support your desire for roads. Not true - the people that I am forced to support because of their inadequacies are not driven on. In fact if I used them the same way I would hve to go to jail. So, no. it is not the same. Yeah, actually it is. It's all about the common good. A lot of people do not use the interstate system, but we all pay for it, because having a good one is good for the community as a whole. Having a healthy populace is also good for the community as a whole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,071 #84 September 28, 2010 >Not true - the people that I am forced to support because of their >inadequacies are not driven on. And the roads that I am forced to support because of your desires are not alive, and have no inherent rights. If it really comes down to supporting people or asphalt, people are going to get priority. Fortunately for you, we support both. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #85 September 28, 2010 Quote>Not true - the people that I am forced to support because of their >inadequacies are not driven on.And the roads that I am forced to support because of your desires are not alive, and have no inherent rights. If it really comes down to supporting people or asphalt, people are going to get priority.Fortunately for you, we support both.no way am i supporting illegal roads that sneak in from the mexican border ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #86 September 28, 2010 Quote >Not true - the people that I am forced to support because of their >inadequacies are not driven on. And the roads that I am forced to support because of your desires are not alive, and have no inherent rights. If it really comes down to supporting people or asphalt, people are going to get priority. Fortunately for you, we support both. I see - then where is the healthcare for the roads here?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,071 #87 September 28, 2010 >I see - then where is the healthcare for the roads here? It's at about $80 billion a year now in the US, at least for the US interstate system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #88 September 28, 2010 Quote>I see - then where is the healthcare for the roads here? It's at about $80 billion a year now in the US, at least for the US interstate system. OK - so that should be the cap for the interstate healthcare then.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #89 September 28, 2010 Quote>and there's nothing wrong with claiming 26 withholding allowances. Other than the fines you get hit with for late payment. ah, but the fines are for not paying enough tax. (greater than this years owed tax, or greater than 90% of last years owed tax last time I checked) If your income changes in the middle of the year, and you've paid enough tax for the year, there is nothing wrong with modifying your withholding allowances to compensate for that. so ASSUMING you declare 26 with no additional amount withheld for the entire year, then yes, you would be under paying. And how would those underpayment fines be levied against the illegal immigrant with the fake SSN? Track down the victim of identity theft and make him pay the fines?-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #90 September 28, 2010 QuoteQuote>I see - then where is the healthcare for the roads here?It's at about $80 billion a year now in the US, at least for the US interstate system.OK - so that should be the cap for the interstate healthcare then.not the interstates that sneak in illegally from the mexican border ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #91 September 28, 2010 QuoteNonsense. It's been clearly documented that illegal immigrants pay taxes. Except for the ones paid 'under the table'. QuoteTypically they pay the same taxes most employees due but they don't file for refunds. Except for the one paid 'under the table'. QuoteMost undocumented workers use fake ss numbers to get employment, so they are taxed. Except for the ones paid under the table. QuoteThey are also taxed through sales tax mechanisms, etc.. Suggesting they don't pay taxes is disingenuous. Inferring they pay just as much tax as legal citizens is equally disingenuous. QuoteProviding them help to obtain insurance is cheaper for the tax payer than providing them with ER care. Got a cite for that? QuoteThis doesn't really matter though, because Republicans were able to ensure that the HCR bill didn't provide any insurance options for illegals. Did the evil ole Republicans do that *before* Obama swore on TV that the healthcare bill didn't cover illegals, or *after*?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doughboyshred 0 #92 September 28, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote>I see - then where is the healthcare for the roads here? It's at about $80 billion a year now in the US, at least for the US interstate system. OK - so that should be the cap for the interstate healthcare then. not the interstates that sneak in illegally from the mexican border ! You mean the ones that we pay to come here. Let em die. fuck em. Right? QuoteThe AP analysis showed that, from January to June, California farmers posted ads for 1,160 farmworker positions open to U.S. citizens and legal residents. But only 233 people in those categories applied after learning of the jobs through unemployment offices in California, Texas, Nevada and Arizona. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #93 September 28, 2010 QuoteYou mean the ones that we pay to come here. Got a cite for that, too? The hiring persons paying the coyotes to bring them across the border, that is. QuoteLet em die. fuck em. Right? You're a student of the "Lucky school of debate", evidently.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipbelt 0 #94 September 28, 2010 this paying for 20mil illegals is starting to get expensive all the hype obuma asserted about HC is proving to be untrue http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2010/sep/25/insurers-stop-adding-kid-policies/http://www.boston.com/business/healthcare/articles/2010/09/28/harvard_pilgrim_cancels_medicare_advantage_plan/http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/247929/anatomy-hostile-government-takeover-james-c-capretta Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,071 #95 September 28, 2010 >If your income changes in the middle of the year, and you've paid enough >tax for the year, there is nothing wrong with modifying your withholding >allowances to compensate for that. Agreed. In addition, if you zero out your withholding and instead pay quarterly taxes, that's OK with the IRS as well. >And how would those underpayment fines be levied against the illegal >immigrant with the fake SSN? Well: a) Anyone can use a fake SSN, whether they are an illegal immigrant or not. b) Many illegal aliens pay via an ITIN, which is an alternative ID that replaces a SSN. It's as traceable as a SSN. The IRS has so far issues 12 million ITINs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doughboyshred 0 #96 September 28, 2010 Quotethis paying for 20mil illegals is starting to get expensive all the hype obuma asserted about HC is proving to be untrue http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2010/sep/25/insurers-stop-adding-kid-policies/ http://www.boston.com/business/healthcare/articles/2010/09/28/harvard_pilgrim_cancels_medicare_advantage_plan/ http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/247929/anatomy-hostile-government-takeover-james-c-capretta Great examples of why there needs to be a strong public option, and why health insurance companies need to be regulated with a heavier hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #97 September 28, 2010 Quotea) Anyone can use a fake SSN, whether they are an illegal immigrant or not. which was partly my point Quote b) Many illegal aliens pay via an ITIN, which is an alternative ID that replaces a SSN. It's as traceable as a SSN. The IRS has so far issues 12 million ITINs. wonder how many are active. There are estimates for how many illegals there are in the country (wildly varying). We could compare active ITINs and guesstimate (with great error margins) how many are paying taxes.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #98 September 28, 2010 Quote>If your income changes in the middle of the year, and you've paid enough >tax for the year, there is nothing wrong with modifying your withholding >allowances to compensate for that. Agreed. In addition, if you zero out your withholding and instead pay quarterly taxes, that's OK with the IRS as well. >And how would those underpayment fines be levied against the illegal >immigrant with the fake SSN? Well: a) Anyone can use a fake SSN, whether they are an illegal immigrant or not. b) Many illegal aliens pay via an ITIN, which is an alternative ID that replaces a SSN. It's as traceable as a SSN. The IRS has so far issues 12 million ITINs. The question was HOW do they collect fines and penalties from those that have a fake SSN, instaed of saying they can't or they don't you say that anyone can fake a SSN? What do they call that?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,071 #99 September 28, 2010 >The question was HOW do they collect fines and penalties from those >that have a fake SSN . . . Same way they've been doing it for decades. They send letters to the address on file, then to the employer. If that doesn't work they may put a lien on homes/cars or garnish wages. They may also file a summons, which they can do for "the purpose of ascertaining the correctness of any return, making a return where none has been made, determining the liability of any person for, or with respect to, any internal revenue tax, or collecting any such liability." That gets the police involved - and since the person filing does have to show up for work, the police can generally collect him there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #100 September 28, 2010 Quote >The question was HOW do they collect fines and penalties from those >that have a fake SSN . . . Same way they've been doing it for decades. They send letters to the address on file, then to the employer. If that doesn't work they may put a lien on homes/cars or garnish wages. They may also file a summons, which they can do for "the purpose of ascertaining the correctness of any return, making a return where none has been made, determining the liability of any person for, or with respect to, any internal revenue tax, or collecting any such liability." That gets the police involved - and since the person filing does have to show up for work, the police can generally collect him there. Funny that you think they are that honest though.Uh - no. He doesn't have to show up for work. The fake SSN holders just leave and find another job.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
