Banning Fenced Hunting?

[Southern_Man 0]

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Maybe we should do the same thing for cattle and pigs; they might be treated better in life .

Wendy P.

Wendy,

quite a few places will let you do the same thing with feral pigs.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[skyrider 0]

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And what kind of meat eaters don't kill?

If you can't see the difference between going hunting and shooting an animal that is fenced in..... Well I don't know what to tell you.

These areas pretty much guaranty that you will score an animal.

To call this "hunting" would be like buying a fish from the pet store and calling it "fishing"

Pretty much? No, they "Garentee" a kill..

They are a Slaughter house for people that want to see what it is like to kill, but lack the skill to do so, Hell, most even butcher the animal for you!

(keep in mind, I think this form of hunting is rediculous) I am only defending an Americans right to run a business , on his/her own land!

I grew up killing and eating my dinner, for some rich city slicker to pretend they have done it too, I see simply as a business!

[skyrider 0]

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Maybe we should do the same thing for cattle and pigs; they might be treated better in life .

Wendy P.

Wendy,

quite a few places will let you do the same thing with feral pigs.

Texas and Arkansas

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Granted, it isn't as sporting.,...BUT this is private property....

LISBON, N.D. (AP) Butch and Deb Dicks lifelong dream was to open a big game hunting preserve and after years of preparation, they expected to welcome the first customers to their southeastern North Dakota ranch this month.

Voters will decide next month whether to shut them down.

It seems that free-range boutique fenced farming with a lot of space per animal and individual harvesting by bow or gun is a lot more humane than mass market fenced farming in dense feed lots that you can smell a mile away with mass processing at the end.

Are they going to ban other sorts of fenced farming including feed lots too?

[billvon 2,989]

>But I don't have a problem with hunting. I do have an issue with this.
>It is not really hunting, more like killing.

Hunting IS killing; it's pretty much the definition. A lot of people enjoy that sort of killing, which is why it's a big sport.

[turtlespeed 219]

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>But I don't have a problem with hunting. I do have an issue with this.
>It is not really hunting, more like killing.

Hunting IS killing; it's pretty much the definition. A lot of people enjoy that sort of killing, which is why it's a big sport.

You can hunt for but not kill.

Fishing is a form of hunting.

Trapping is a form, of hunting

I have done catch and release in both.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[steve1 5]

In fifty years of hunting, I've killed a lot of game. Today I have a hard time pulling the trigger on anything. I just don't enjoy that part of hunting anymore. Usually I take my wife and kids out and let them do the shooting. I take care of the meat after it is down. It's about the only meat we eat. But I seldom kill a thing. I still enjoy hunting though.

I once heard of another old fart who would go out hunting each year. He wouldn't take any bullets. He enjoyed being out in nature and being part of the hunting process, but he didn't shoot a thing. I've never met anyone like that personally, but what I'm getting at is that there is more to hunting than just killing stuff.

Another old hunter that I know, hunts hard every Fall. He's killed his share of smaller animals over the years, and he just doesn't enjoy that much any more. He won't settle for anything but a really big buck. Almost every year he gets skunked. There was nothing big enough for him to shoot, but that didn't stop him from enjoying the hunt....

Many people think that killing is all there is to hunting. If that was true, I'd get a job in a butcher shop. That thought sickens me. Game farm operations make me sick too. Where is the challenge in that?....

I talked to a guy once that worked on the game farm. He said he didn't know if he would ever hunt elk again. He was that disheartened after guiding on that place.

Elk are more than just dumb farm animals. They deserve more respect than that. It takes a ton of skill to hunt them successfully. Anyone with a big wad of cash can kill an elk on a game farm....

[skyrider 0]

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In fifty years of hunting, I've killed a lot of game. Today I have a hard time pulling the trigger on anything. I just don't enjoy that part of hunting anymore. Usually I take my wife and kids out and let them do the shooting. I take care of the meat after it is down. It's about the only meat we eat. But I seldom kill a thing. I still enjoy hunting though.

I once heard of another old fart who would go out hunting each year. He wouldn't take any bullets. He enjoyed being out in nature and being part of the hunting process, but he didn't shoot a thing. I've never met anyone like that personally, but what I'm getting at is that there is more to hunting than just killing stuff.

Another old hunter that I know, hunts hard every Fall. He's killed his share of smaller animals over the years, and he just doesn't enjoy that much any more. He won't settle for anything but a really big buck. Almost every year he gets skunked. There was nothing big enough for him to shoot, but that didn't stop him from enjoying the hunt....

Many people think that killing is all there is to hunting. If that was true, I'd get a job in a butcher shop. That thought sickens me. Game farm operations make me sick too. Where is the challenge in that?....

I talked to a guy once that worked on the game farm. He said he didn't know if he would ever hunt elk again. He was that disheartened after guiding on that place.

Elk are more than just dumb farm animals. They deserve more respect than that. It takes a ton of skill to hunt them successfully. Anyone with a big wad of cash can kill an elk on a game farm....

All great opions, adn Emotions...so do we stop otehrs from making money off of something, just because to us it is not sporting or manly?

I still see no where in any arguement saying these people do not have a rigth to run such business on their own land....

many times when I was a child, we hunted on priivate property, wwith permission, usually with an agreement to give the owner some meat....that is No different , under the eyes of the law....ALL private property could be closed , if BS like this passes...

[steve1 5]

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[
All great opions, adn Emotions...so do we stop otehrs from making money off of something, just because to us it is not sporting or manly?

I still see no where in any arguement saying these people do not have a rigth to run such business on their own land....

many times when I was a child, we hunted on priivate property, wwith permission, usually with an agreement to give the owner some meat....that is No different , under the eyes of the law....ALL private property could be closed , if BS like this passes...

I'm not a big fan of government intruding on peoples lives. If something becomes stupid enough though maybe the government does need to step in....

[Andy9o8 2]

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I'm not a big fan of government intruding on peoples lives. If something becomes stupid enough though maybe the government does need to step in....

You just made an argument for pure Communism!

[metalslug 36]

Fenced hunting is an issue of controversy over here too right now. Many foreigners, mostly Americans, will pay up to $40000 or more to hunt one of the 'Big 5'; lion, african elephant, cape buffalo, leopard and rhinoceros, and do so in a confined space.

I don't have as much of an issue hunting any animal that is efficiently processed and utilised after the kill, such as most deer.
Trophy hunting, however, is a different bag of ethics and is regarded by many as a wasteful bloodsport, an unnecessary kill, and this is what makes it incomparable to the slaughterhouse floor.

I believe that it's overly simplistic to reduce the matter to property rights over land and animals.
Slaves were once property too in many countries until opinion evolved to afford them more humane circumstances. Eventually, these changes were written into law.

Therefore; if I had to stock a hunting farm with a section of the human population that I dislike and kill them for sport, many trophy hunters would find my actions abhorrent, and I would find their reaction to be ironic.
Without quoting scripture or law; who is to say that a randomly selected animal is more deserving of an unnecessary 'trophy' death than a randomly selected human is ?

That's really what the controversy over trophy hunting is; an opinion over how much value we place on (animal) life and the quality of that life.
This is why it's put to a vote, because voting is opinion.

[skyrider 0]

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Fenced hunting is an issue of controversy over here too right now. Many foreigners, mostly Americans, will pay up to $40000 or more to hunt one of the 'Big 5'; lion, african elephant, cape buffalo, leopard and rhinoceros, and do so in a confined space.

I don't have as much of an issue hunting any animal that is efficiently processed and utilised after the kill, such as most deer.
Trophy hunting, however, is a different bag of ethics and is regarded by many as a wasteful bloodsport, an unnecessary kill, and this is what makes it incomparable to the slaughterhouse floor.

I believe that it's overly simplistic to reduce the matter to property rights over land and animals.
Slaves were once property too in many countries until opinion evolved to afford them more humane circumstances. Eventually, these changes were written into law.

Therefore; if I had to stock a hunting farm with a section of the human population that I dislike and kill them for sport, many trophy hunters would find my actions abhorrent, and I would find their reaction to be ironic.
Without quoting scripture or law; who is to say that a randomly selected animal is more deserving of an unnecessary 'trophy' death than a randomly selected human is ?

That's really what the controversy over trophy hunting is; an opinion over how much value we place on (animal) life and the quality of that life.
This is why it's put to a vote, because voting is opinion.

So are we going to put it up to the vote to ban ranching cattle? they are protected/prized in some religions...

Comparing animal rights/life to humans? I don't see that ever happening!

[steve1 5]

I think most game farms in Africa are different than the ones I've heard of in the U.S. In Africa there are huge tracts of land, where the game is kept in with electric wire. Maybe it is possible to have an ethical hunt in such a place.

To tell you the truth I'm getting fed up with hunting in the U.S. With our over-population problem, hunting is fast becoming a thing of the past. When I was a kid you could hunt remote areas and seldom see another hunter. It isn't like that now.

This past weekend my wife and I loaded up our horses. We drove eight hours to find a place to hunt elk. Long before daylight there was one vehicle after another passing our camp.

I knew better than to take off riding before daylight because we didn't want to get shot. After daylight it reminded me of a pumpkin patch. Behind every ridge was a hunter orange vest.

This was Montana, not New York. There were many elk killed that morning, but it was a crappy way to hunt in my opinion.

Most of the elk were being chased off the public land onto private, where you couldn't hunt. It must be like paradise to hunt some of those private ranches Only the wealthy can afford to hunt there.

Game farms are just another example of what hunting is coming to....You pay your money and drive away with multiple trophy's. It's quick and easy, but hardly hunting in my opinion....

[wmw999 2,439]

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hardly hunting in my opinion

Nope, it's not hunting. But it probably shouldn't be illegal, either.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[steve1 5]

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I'm not a big fan of government intruding on peoples lives. If something becomes stupid enough though maybe the government does need to step in....

You just made an argument for pure Communism!

I think that might be a pretty big jump...No, I'm not an advocate of Communism...

In many ways I'd like to think that a land owner should be able to do anything he wants with his land. After all it's his land. But the truth is that it just isn't like that in America. I know places where you can't even build a house because the people don't want them there. I'm not saying that is right, but that is how it is.

If the people in a state don't want prostitution in their state they vote to keep it out. The same is true of gambling. If most of the people don't want game farms they should be able to vote them down in my opinion....If it was a constitutional right, things would be different.

I'm not a lawyer or politician. Set me straight if some of my thinking is off on this....I'd like to hear your opinion....

[metalslug 36]

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I knew better than to take off riding before daylight because we didn't want to get shot. After daylight it reminded me of a pumpkin patch. Behind every ridge was a hunter orange vest.

This is why I have no problem with 139,000,000 pigs, cattle and sheep from slaughterhouses. Better to have that than 139,000,000 orange vests behind ridges.

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So are we going to put it up to the vote to ban ranching cattle? they are protected/prized in some religions...

Well, if they were voting in India, so be it.
In your country, I wouldn't be worried just yet.

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Comparing animal rights/life to humans? I don't see that ever happening!

Oh, I don't expect it to. I'm not lobbying for elk to get the right to vote either.
What I am hoping for is a more measured dominance over animals that is based on necessity rather than sport.

[Andy9o8 2]

The policy pros & cons of this practice, and the proposed law, have been well-discussed in this thread.

As for legalities: In American jurisprudence, there has always been (esp. since around the turn of the 20th Century) a certain degree of "tension" between a person's right to use his real property (i.e., land, buildings) as he sees fit, and the public's entitlement to set certain regulations as to the use and character of real property. One good example of this are local zoning ordinances, which probably exist in virtually every local jurisdiction in the US. That's why, for example, you might be prohibited from building a house on land zoned "heavy-industrial", or operating an auto repair shop out of your garage if the land your house is on is zoned "residential-only".

Naturally, there are lots of grey areas, creating lots of disagreements between reasonable (as well as unreasonable) minds; and sometimes, the courts are called upon to referee the dispute between constitutional property rights, and government's constitutional police power to set reasonable regulations on the use and nature of real property, for the good of the community as a whole.

If I had to predict, I'd say that if this law is enacted, and then challenged in Federal court on Federal constitutional grounds, there'd be about an 85-90% chance the law would be upheld. (Separately, there might also be grounds to challenge the law under the state constitution, about which I wouldn't speculate.)

[skipbelt 0]

the fenced hunting is tragic in a way. the original attraction was a contest where the quarry had a fighting chance to escape or even turn the tables . the adrenaline rush came from a life and death struggle where stalking and hunting skills are sorely tested. where knowledge and execution of safari skills are the edge over the prey. more and more the deck is stacked completely against the hunted. i would be very favorably inclined to these hunts if the hunter had no more than a 50% chance of survival. could be a good reality show !

[randompoints 0]

I don't know if comparing the "Big5 hunts in Africa" is the same thing. The fees paid by the hunters to hunt pay for the park rangers the fences and the conservation areas that allow the endangered species to survive. Try poaching in some of those area's, the park rangers will judge and jury you right there, your messing with their pay check. Also they select which animals can be hunted, i.e. past breeding age and such.

I'm not saying its sporting or anything, or is it the best way. Just the way it is at the moment.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm not a lawyer or politician. Set me straight if some of my thinking is off on this....I'd like to hear your opinion....

I'm still waiting for your's - you're waffling, like a few others here.

'I believe in rights, but this issue rubs me wrong. Maybe something should be done.'

???

[wmw999 2,439]

Sounds like it's a conflicted issue for him, and not a black and white one that he can come with with a quick assessment. There's nothing wrong with that.

He might even have posted to SC to get others' thoughts, rather than simply to share his own.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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As for legalities: In American jurisprudence, there has always been (esp. since around the turn of the 20th Century) a certain degree of "tension" between a person's right to use his real property (i.e., land, buildings) as he sees fit, and the public's entitlement to set certain regulations as to the use and character of real property. One good example of this are local zoning ordinances, which probably exist in virtually every local jurisdiction in the US. That's why, for example, you might be prohibited from building a house on land zoned "heavy-industrial", or operating an auto repair shop out of your garage if the land your house is on is zoned "residential-only".

There are compelling reasons behind the concept of zoning. Mixing heavy industrial with residential has clear issues.

Hunting on rural farmland does not present such concerns, no more than the practice of foie gras farming does. It does lead to people wishing to impose their value judgement on others.

I don't disagree that it would be upheld, but that doesn't make it "right."

[kelpdiver 2]

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Sounds like it's a conflicted issue for him, and not a black and white one that he can come with with a quick assessment. There's nothing wrong with that.

He might even have posted to SC to get others' thoughts, rather than simply to share his own.

Wendy P.

That may well be. But as I note, he's not the only one with it, and when I see it repeated, it reminds me of politicians trying to play it both ways.

'I voted for gun bans every chance I got, but look, I respect hunting!'

or

'I support both the Yankees and Mets.' (or Cubs and White Sox)

When I read this, my gut says that they're fully onboard with the hunting ban.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don't know if comparing the "Big5 hunts in Africa" is the same thing. The fees paid by the hunters to hunt pay for the park rangers the fences and the conservation areas that allow the endangered species to survive. Try poaching in some of those area's, the park rangers will judge and jury you right there, your messing with their pay check. Also they select which animals can be hunted, i.e. past breeding age and such.

That is the way it's sold, but at the heart of it, you still have endangered/threatened species being shot as trophies, making it much more complicated then hunting of common meat species in an large contained area.

If the area is really only 1 or a few square miles, the biggest concern I would have is that bullets would be going well outside of the confines. Establishing an 800m no fire zone along the corridor would reduce it to almost nothing.

[randompoints 0]

Correct that's why I said I didn't think comparing the 2 was something you could do. 2 different issues, want to debate the big5 hunts, fine. Want to debate the fenced hunting of elk or deer in a small fenced in area, fine. I just think they 2 separate issues