nigel99 507 #26 November 10, 2010 QuoteQuote My case is that Afghanistan and Iraq are and were a waste of lives - ours and theirs. Whatever way you want to look at it. No war - no one can die from war. No disease, no one can die from disease. etc. Do you really believe in your heart that thousands of of those same people would not have died wether we went in or not? Any life taken is a waste. It is just a very difficult thing and a heavy burdenm that leaders hold on their shoulders, to decide which ones are justified. I think that in the case of Iraq not a single US or UK life would have been lost IF there had not been a war. Afghanistan is not as black and white as clearly there were considerable ties with terrorism. As far as local lives go - I believe that GW Bush and Tony Blair are morally responsible for the 100 000 odd deaths that have occurred. I can't put a figure on what the deaths would have been under Saddam but I think it is safe to say there would have been considerably less. I haven't heard a great deal about civilian deaths in Afghanistan and so I don't have an opinion and I generally feel that the Afghan leadership needed to be removed and that the price of war will ultimately be worth it - IF we don't simply install another lunatic.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #28 November 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteAny life taken is a waste. It is just a very difficult thing and a heavy burdenm that leaders hold on their shoulders, to decide which ones are justified.True dat. However, when it's clear that the lives of the people we are supposed to be defending aren't held to be as valuable as the lives of the defenders, there's something wrong. Wendy P. I'm not 100% on what you are trying to convey, but it sounds like you are saying that the citizens are not counted as wothy of as much protection as the soldiers we send over there.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,461 #29 November 10, 2010 If you look at the casualty rates, and read the paper, it really sounds like the US military and its contractors did not value the civilians' lives as highly as their own. "Collateral damage" is the term for it. Our purpose there was supposedly to save lives, so collateral damage should have been a primary concern (as it's becoming in Afghanistan). Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 806 #30 November 11, 2010 I think history has repeatedly taught us a few things about the types of war we wage. Sometimes the enemy will not play by the rules and it then requires us to play "tit for tat". They will never understand anything else. The Germans and the Japanese in WWII would have never played nice with us. Our hands were forced to do what we did. While those actions cost lots of lives, it also saved others. I would never defend the idiocies of GW himself, I do think he tried what he thought was right for what he was dealt. Given the information provided him, he reacted the best he could. Much like our current leader. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #31 November 11, 2010 Quote Whatever way you want to look at it. No war - no one can die from war. No disease, no one can die from disease. etc. No skydiving - no one can die from no skydiving. No driving - no one can die from no driving. No sex - no one can die from no sex. To be human is to accept responsibility for humanness. There are some who accept the reality of wars as a condition of humanness. These people become professional in their ability to carry it out, not to promote it but to restrict it. Those warriors wait in the shadows for orders to unleash their fury. There is an old story of the sheep and the sheepdogs. It is not bad to be a sheep. However, if you are a sheep, it is extremely bad taste to disparage the sheep dog. This is especially true when the sheep is from another herd in another pasture.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #32 November 11, 2010 QuoteThere are some who accept the reality of wars as a condition of humanness. and I would fundamentally disagree with that. big difference between sex, skydiving, driving and INVADING other countries and killing their civilians to further our own agenda..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivr 0 #33 November 11, 2010 QuoteQuote Whatever way you want to look at it. No war - no one can die from war. No disease, no one can die from disease. etc. No skydiving - no one can die from no skydiving. No driving - no one can die from no driving. No sex - no one can die from no sex. To be human is to accept responsibility for humanness. There are some who accept the reality of wars as a condition of humanness. These people become professional in their ability to carry it out, not to promote it but to restrict it. Those warriors wait in the shadows for orders to unleash their fury. There is an old story of the sheep and the sheepdogs. It is not bad to be a sheep. However, if you are a sheep, it is extremely bad taste to disparage the sheep dog. This is especially true when the sheep is from another herd in another pasture. Well said. You've got 3 choices in this world to be; 1) The Wolf, 2) The Sheep or 3) the sheepdog. Which is it gonna be?Keith Abner D-17590 "Those who do, can't explain; those who don't, can't understand" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #34 November 11, 2010 "saved lives". That sounds familiar; Oh, yeah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #35 November 11, 2010 I prefer being the hunter thanks. Shoot the wolf only if needed, pet the sheep dog a lot since they like that and mutton is some damn fine eating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #36 November 11, 2010 Quote .... Well said. You've got 3 choices in this world to be; 1) The Wolf, 2) The Sheep or 3) the sheepdog. Which is it gonna be? NOT well said, Sir, really NOT. That's plain bullshit. 1) Even in a wolfpack, there is the alpha male as well as the rest of the pack. If male or female, they have their ranks. So, the very last ranked wolf is showing the white feather. Is he "the wolf*?? 2) I've seen rams attacking savaged dogs. Attackers escaped in high speed. Who, in that scenario, was the coward? 3) Sheepdog: It's an affront to those animals just to be ranked under 3). Those animals do show more intelligent moves than the average SC posters. There are many more choices in our world. Especially for human beings. It just needs brain to see them. If you're only focused on your 1) - 3), have fun dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #37 November 11, 2010 Quote Quote .... Well said. You've got 3 choices in this world to be; 1) The Wolf, 2) The Sheep or 3) the sheepdog. Which is it gonna be? NOT well said, Sir, really NOT. That's plain bullshit. Apparently, you have not read the story by LTC Dave Grossman. http://www.soldiersperspective.us/2008/02/09/sheep-wolves-sheepdogs/Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #38 November 12, 2010 Quote Well that should stir up those here who have a never ending desire to kiss Bush ass all day every day for the rest of their lives. He 'saw' exactly what he was LOOKING for... *I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #39 November 13, 2010 QuoteIt is not bad to be a sheep. Excuse my following language, but as I said, I' ve been drinking a little more than I should... ...but at least the dumb ass sheep are protected unlike all the other fucking stupid animals.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #40 November 13, 2010 Quotehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11715577 Interesting article and perspective on Bush's perspective on torture. Bush is a war criminal and should be in prison. There is absolutely no justification for his crimes.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #41 November 13, 2010 QuoteBush is a war criminal and should be in prison. There is absolutely no justification for his crimes. Seriously though, what do you know about it? Have you been exposed to priveleged information?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #42 November 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteBush is a war criminal and should be in prison. There is absolutely no justification for his crimes. Seriously though, what do you know about it? Have you been exposed to priveleged information? Are you nuts? We invaded a defenseless country for no reason.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #43 November 13, 2010 QuoteAre you nuts? Yes... but again...have you been exposed to privileged information?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #44 November 13, 2010 Nope, just the same information everyone else gets.Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #45 November 13, 2010 QuoteNope, just the same information everyone else gets. Good...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #46 November 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteBush is a war criminal and should be in prison. There is absolutely no justification for his crimes. Seriously though, what do you know about it? Have you been exposed to priveleged information? Are you nuts? We invaded a defenseless country for no reason. Apparently, you were not paying much attention to the news much after 10 Sep 01.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 507 #47 November 13, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Bush is a war criminal and should be in prison. There is absolutely no justification for his crimes. Seriously though, what do you know about it? Have you been exposed to priveleged information? Are you nuts? We invaded a defenseless country for no reason. Apparently, you were not paying much attention to the news much after 10 Sep 01. Iraq is connected to September 11th how?Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #48 November 13, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Bush is a war criminal and should be in prison. There is absolutely no justification for his crimes. Seriously though, what do you know about it? Have you been exposed to priveleged information? Are you nuts? We invaded a defenseless country for no reason. Apparently, you were not paying much attention to the news much after 10 Sep 01. Iraq is connected to September 11th how? Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,009 #49 November 13, 2010 >Iraq is connected to September 11th how? sshhh, he's on a roll Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 507 #50 November 13, 2010 Quote>Iraq is connected to September 11th how? sshhh, he's on a roll Do you remember the Iraq debates? Rhino was a prominent poster back then, I still remember his "glass parking lot" preference.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
