Do the "rich" really PAY this much?

[mirage62 0]

The below is from Bernard Goldbery.com I was wondering if the really smart people could confirm or deny the numbers he throws out. It seems by his numbers that the "rich" really are doing there fair share plus some.

Really please tell me he is wrong.

I have an idea for a monument in our nation’s capital. I envision a big bronze and granite statue that would honor an entire group of Americans who are true heroes, and unsung heroes at that.

It is time — no, make that long past time — to pay tribute to those this nation of ours owes a great debt; to those who give and give and give and in return get anything but our gratitude.

This is an idea whose time has finally come.

Right there, amongst the sacred national structures that honor great Americans, we need to build a shiny monument to … (this is where the drum roll would come in) The Rich – otherwise known in liberal circles as the filthy, no good, greedy, heartless rich.

The statue could be simple and elegant: a smiling rich guy in a business suit holding hundred dollar bills in both hands, extended toward the blue sky.

President Obama compromises with Republicans and gives the wealthiest two percent of Americans a temporary respite from a tax hike and listening to the yelps of the “progressives” you’d think he just tried to shut down WikiLeaks or something. But even while he’s compromising, the president is bashing the rich, lashing out at them as “the wealthiest Americans” … “the wealthiest 2% of Americans” … talking about “tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires” … and—as the Wall Street Journal noted, “channeling the French revolution—’the wealthiest estates.’”

The Left is bawling about how “we can’t afford” to give people “who don’t need it” a tax break. This argument makes perfect sense, of course – as long as income re-distribution is a central tenet in your theology. Never mind that liberals weren’t all that concerned about what we could afford when they passed a nearly trillion dollar stimulus package that didn’t stimulate very much or when they poured in billions of our tax dollars to bail out General Motors. It’s only now that they’re concerned about budgets because those nasty rich folks are getting a break. But I don’t want to pick a fight with my liberal friends over whether the wealthiest Americans “deserve” a tax break or not. I have come simply to praise The Rich, not to bury them.

I offer a few numbers to make my case:

Did you know that the top one percent of American wage earners (adjusted gross income) pay about 38 percent of all our federal personal taxes (according to the National Taxpayer Union)? The top one percent, by the way, account for 23.5 percent of all income — a substantial amount, yes, but considerably less than 38 percent.
Or that the top five percent pay just under 60 percent?

Or that the top ten percent pay about 70 percent of all the personal income taxes collected in this great land of ours?

These “fat-cats” are the ones who do the heavy lifting in this country. They’re the ones whose federal tax dollars pick up a big chunk of the tab for all sorts of noble things, such as: food for folks who don’t have enough to eat … medicine and doctors for people with little money … financial aid to help other people’s kids go to college … milk and diapers for poor babies whose 15 year-old mothers and deadbeat fathers are too irresponsible to take care of their own kids … a safety net for old folks who are retired on fixed incomes … and on and on.

And if they “only” bank their new found savings instead of spending it all over town? Well, that’s a plus too. It means there would be more money out there for businesses to borrow for expansion, which probably would mean more jobs. Or it could mean more money for new homeowners to borrow, which would also give a boost to the limp economy.

No, I’m not saying the wealthiest Americans are all a bunch of selfless philanthropists. But try to imagine an America without those rich people.

By the way, the bottom 50 percent of tax filers pay a paltry 2.7 percent of our federal income taxes. How many poor people do you think their tax dollars are taking care of? If you ask me, they’re the ones not paying their fair share. Every time they pass a “rich” person on the street, they ought to say, “Thank you for everything you do me and for this country.”

For those of you not already making plans to hang me in effigy – or for real – let me simply say this: The richest Americans may not “need” a break on their taxes, but they sure don’t need being vilified, either. They need our gratitude.

So let’s get busy on that shiny monument in our nation’s capital. And let’s get some unemployed people out there building it. It’s the least they can do for those nice rich people who have been keeping them afloat.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[TheBachelor 5]

Those numbers seem to match those published by several sources, including the National Taxpayers Union. The table is here: http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

The government doesn't have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[mnealtx 0]

The numbers look right in comparison to the 07 numbers - that said, I've not looked at the 08 numbers from the IRS.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wmw999 2,447]

I'm not surprised.

However, if you consider the greater percentage of income that someone who's poor must spend to survive, as compared with someone who's rich, it's not really that surprising.

Yeah, we do have a spending problem. As do a whole lot of individual Americans who expect others to pick up after them -- whether it's energy consumption, poor eating and health habits, short-sighted financial decisions -- we're all used to things being easy, and fixable instantly. And Gummint seems to be committed to making sure that we don't suffer too much for our own shortsightedness.

However, if you consider that each of those people is just like us in most ways, and that most of us have a large dose of luck to go along with our good choices (), you really can't justify entirely saying "fuck you, I got mine." . At least I hope not.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[likearock 2]

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Did you know that the top one percent of American wage earners (adjusted gross income) pay about 38 percent of all our federal personal taxes (according to the National Taxpayer Union)? The top one percent, by the way, account for 23.5 percent of all income — a substantial amount, yes, but considerably less than 38 percent.

I'm not sure why you're so surprised.

I believe that break down is a consequence of the fact that we have a progressive tax structure where the rich pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes. If we had a completely flat tax, you would indeed have that top 1% paying 23.5% of the total tax.

Now whether you think its fair or not for millionaires to pay a higher percentage is something you can certainly argue one way or the other but as of now, they are.

[mirage62 0]

Not surprised and I favor a proggressive tax rate. I was just surprised at how clear he put it....you never hear the numbers layed outlike that.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mirage62 0]

Wendy, let me ask IF these numbers are correct...don't you think it's possible that the so called rich are being very generous? I understand it isn't a total choice but they do seem to pay a lot more.

BTW who said "fuck'em" not me. As for "luck" I guess we can assume that everyone - or the majority - of anyone that made it were just lucky.

Right.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rhaig 0]

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I'm not surprised.

However, if you consider the greater percentage of income that someone who's poor must spend to survive, as compared with someone who's rich, it's not really that surprising.

so rather than tax income, let's tax spending. consumption tax please. either go the prebate route like fairtax outlines, or don't tax produce, staple foods, and allow some tax-free weekends for clothing and household spending.

--
Rob

[doughboyshred 0]

The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

Why is this never mentioned when these numbers are tossed around?

These numbers reflect this trend. As more and more people lose their incomes more of the tax burden will be taken up by the rich.

The solution is not to lower the tax rate for the top earners, it is to increase the amount earned by the lower wage earners (and therefore increase the amount of the tax burden that they pay).

[mnealtx 0]

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The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

Why is this never mentioned when these numbers are tossed around?

Because it's a specious argument, used only in an attempt to justify 'spreading the wealth around'.

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These numbers reflect this trend. As more and more people lose their incomes more of the tax burden will be taken up by the rich.

Actually, no - what the numbers show is that when tax rates are reduced, the upper tiers take on MORE of the tax load.

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The solution is not to lower the tax rate for the top earners, it is to increase the amount earned by the lower wage earners (and therefore increase the amount of the tax burden that they pay).

Reductions in tax rates result in the lower brackets keeping more of their paycheck, which has the same effect as what you suggest without the loss of employment and cost increases of mandated minimum wages.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,994]

>The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

In general, the poor are getting richer too. In just about every category (access to food, housing, medical care etc) even the very poor in this country are better off than they were 100 years ago.

[ridestrong 1]

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>The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

In general, the poor are getting richer too. In just about every category (access to food, housing, medical care etc) even the very poor in this country are better off than they were 100 years ago.

Thank you!

The USA while not perfect, still does a pretty good job of helping those in need, in addition to individual communities, charity and private organizations.

No offense to the poster but I get sick of seeing that phrase always thrown around (truthful or not).

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[SStewart 13]

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>The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

In general, the poor are getting richer too. In just about every category (access to food, housing, medical care etc) even the very poor in this country are better off than they were 100 years ago.

Really? So.... being poor now sucks less than it did 100 years ago. Now that IS progress!

It still sucks, but just not as hard! At least now we have electricity!

Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

Onward and Upward!

[Channman 2]

> "Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!"

Really, lets all wait until you decide to get off your hands and earn your first 2 million. Then we will come and take 50% of it from you and get your reaction. Honestly,until then, your statement is nothing more than your stated intent.

[DiverMike 5]

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Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

With an attitude like that, you will probably never be a millionaire or if you become one you won't be for long. Becoming a millionaire is quite achievable in the US given a long enough period of time (20-30 years). Spend less than what you make, protect what you own, don't give the government any more money that you have to.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Channman 2]

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Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

With an attitude like that, you will probably never be a millionaire or if you become one you won't be for long. Becoming a millionaire is quite achievable in the US given a long enough period of time (20-30 years). Spend less than what you make, protect what you own, don't give the government any more money that you have to.

Now, if only a handful more DZ.COM members can muster the courage to be self reliant.

His statement, "If I were a millionaire..." reminded me of a quote from Theodore Rossevelt, but I'll paraphrase, "A statement of intent is like a rifle, its usefulness depends upon the character of the user".

[doughboyshred 0]

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>The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

In general, the poor are getting richer too. In just about every category (access to food, housing, medical care etc) even the very poor in this country are better off than they were 100 years ago.

That may very well be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that the middle class is shrinking. We are more and more becoming a nation of poor and rich. Poor people can't pick up the tax burden, so it skews even heavier towards the rich.

If we get rid of the middle class entirely then the rich can pay 100% of the tax burden.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The solution is not to lower the tax rate for the top earners, it is to increase the amount earned by the lower wage earners (and therefore increase the amount of the tax burden that they pay).

Can you say hyperinflation? I knew you could (said in my best Mr Rogers voice).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lawrocket 3]

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The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

Hmmm. Seems to me the poor are nowhere near as poor as they have historically been.

A University of Michigan study a few years back took a look at poverty distribution. The study found that a mere 5% of people in the lower fifth of the income distribution in 1975 were still there in 1991. These folks all moved up. Those poor in 1975 had an average upward income gain - adjusted for inflation - of $24,745 per year between 1975 and 1991. The top fifth of income earners gained an yearly average increase of $4,354. The rich got richer. The poor improved a lot more than the rich.

Listen - if poverty is defined as the lowest 20% of income, then there will ALWAYS be poverty and always be the wealthiest. But, my fucking goodness, compare today's poverty with the poverty of yesterday. Compare the poverty in the US with the poverty of rest of the world - what the hell does it show? The poor in Asia and Africa? South America? Central America? Do they have air conditioning? How about television, much less cable? Cars? Cell phones?

The poor are getting poorer with more.

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Why is this never mentioned when these numbers are tossed around?

Because it's a rhetorical catch phrase. The rich are getting richer. Yeah. Bill Gates was worth $100 billion in 1999. He's now worth about $40 billion. I guess he's getting richer, just like Warren Buffet - who lost $25 billion or so between 2008 and 2009. Both, of course, donated billions to charity - the true meaning of "fuck the poor," eh?

The poor are getting richer and have been. Tell me the last time you saw a kid walking around in a potato sack. Let's take a look at the wealthiest Americans of the past.
(1) Rockefeller - would have been worht $650 billion today.
(2) Vanderbilt had 1% of all wealth in the US to himself.
(3) Henry Ford - $200 billion in today's money.

Today Bill Gates is the top with $40 billion or so.

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These numbers reflect this trend. As more and more people lose their incomes more of the tax burden will be taken up by the rich.

As more and more people gained their incomes more of the tax burden was taken up by the rich.

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The solution is not to lower the tax rate for the top earners, it is to increase the amount earned by the lower wage earners (and therefore increase the amount of the tax burden that they pay).

Ha! I showed you that incomes for those in the lowest fifth increased by an average per year of nearly $25k. I hate to break this to you, but it solved "poverty." Now in the US you have the poor, who seem to have quite a bit.

The rhetorical crap has played out for 100 years now. And like it or not, it's class warfare. What is the problem with successful people? Why is it that they are contantly called upon to do more and more? And for nothing more than the excuse that they have more to take?

Bernie Madoff is a classic example of who should be regarded as a progressive communist hero. He managed to steal $50 billion from the rich. Why isn't he adored? His clientele was exclusive. He made all of that money and stole all of it from the wealthy! And he was a philantropist - helping people with that money stolen from the rich and wealthy.

But oh no... The wealthy there had money for everybody else. And when MAdoff took money from the wealthy he took money from the middle class and poor. He managed to turn a lot of rich folks into not-so-rich folks. He managed to make off with peoples' retirements, among other things.


As a final note, the richest person in world history was probably Rockefeller, whose personal wealth approached $700 billion in today's money. Think of how much the federal government pulls in and spends EVERY YEAR to get an idea of the beast. If Rockefeller spent what the federal government is spending he would have been penniless in 10 weeks. And since the poor aren't paying those taxes, then that amount is being sucked up by everyone EXCEPT the poor.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Southern_Man 0]

I always dislike the numbers posted in the O.P.'s statement because I think that it is misleading not to include payroll taxes for purposes of discussion. Those are real taxes as well.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[wmw999 2,447]

Good, thoughtful post.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mirage62 0]

What mine wasn't?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[kelpdiver 2]

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>The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

In general, the poor are getting richer too. In just about every category (access to food, housing, medical care etc) even the very poor in this country are better off than they were 100 years ago.

Really? So.... being poor now sucks less than it did 100 years ago. Now that IS progress!

It still sucks, but just not as hard! At least now we have electricity!

and cable tv, and a cell phone, and a car, and...read Sinclair's The Jungle and compare it to the life anyone has now and tell us it's remotely similar.

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Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!

And you still wouldn't be able to retire securely, even in Utah where the cost of living is 40% lower than a city like San Francisco. 1 mil = 40k/year for ~30 years, but with uncertain probability.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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I always dislike the numbers posted in the O.P.'s statement because I think that it is misleading not to include payroll taxes for purposes of discussion. Those are real taxes as well.

Which payroll taxes are you referring to?

The Social Security Tax (FICA) is seperate from the Income tax. Above a certain income, it doesn't get taken. In theory, SS is a seperate entity from Income Tax.

The withholding for "Income Tax" (shows as "State" and "Federal" on my pay statements) is the Income Tax. The paperwork you file in April is the "return", figuring out the difference between what you had withheld from your paycheck and what you actually owe.

Many (most) people over-withhold during the year, generating a tax refund. I never understood the elation some people express when they find out that the gave the government several thousand dollars extra during the course of the year and are finally getting it back.

I try to get my withholdings as close as possible to what I really owe so that I get the money throughout the year, rather than giving the government an interest-free loan.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[headoverheels 333]

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> "Honestly, if I was a millionaire I would not care if my taxes went up. Because I would still be a fucking millionaire!"

Really, lets all wait until you decide to get off your hands and earn your first 2 million. Then we will come and take 50% of it from you and get your reaction. Honestly,until then, your statement is nothing more than your stated intent.

I pretty much have that opinion, and I earned my first two million long ago. Tax rates for the rich are historically low.
You can't get blood from a turnip, and you can't get substantial taxes from a family of four making $50k per year.