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virgin-burner

what's safer!?

By virgin-burner, in Speakers Corner

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PiLFy    3

PiLFy
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A .223 will go through several walls (or 4,000+yds) until it hits someone innocent.



A .223 won't go 4,000 yards if aimed normally at something horizontally. You have to get very specialized to even get it to go 1,000 yards.

If you aim it up in the air like a howitzer, it might go that distance, but then it's not going to kill anyone because it will have lost all it's velocity and will simple be freefalling on the way down.

And it's most likely that the bullet will hit and be stopped by something other than innocent people - while you seem to suggest that the bullet will go on forever until it finds a person in which to expend its energy.



I'm no expert on 223s. The whole black gun thing never did it for me. Yes. light weight bullets don't retain energy @terminal. I know that. I did a quick look around the Net to find effective ranges for that caliber. Maybe it was a little too quick. I'd say a thousand yards is too short, though. Didn't that sniper & son duo take people out @1500yds? No bullet goes on forever. Admiral Kimmel got hit in the chest w/a spent .50, remember? I think the longest confirmed sniper kill to date was about 2400yds. That was w/a fifty.

My main points stand, though. A 12G is definitely the better choice for him. A 223 will go "Quite a ways farther" (Better?) than 00 Buck, or even a slug. It also has far more stopping power. Plus, shotguns are very versatile w/different loadings & barrels.

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virgin-burner    1

virgin-burner
i know i can make headshots @300yards with iron-sights; i also know i can make EASY headshots with a scope @600yards. that is with the .223, also, i can deal with any problems i might encounter very quickly and safely. i'm just not so familiar with the shotgun..

i can also make headshots at 25yards while i'm walking, within 2 seconds of finding a target, weapon down. as i said, i'm very well trained with my sig..

but for my purposes, the shotgun might be the better choice, i've understood so far.. just dont have a chance now really to get as surgical as i was with the sig!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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winsor    236

winsor
just aint sure what's better for "home-protection", eg. what should i keep under my pillow!



A 12 gauge shotgun with a 50cm/20" barrel loaded with birdshot is about optimum. At close range it has twice the energy of the vaunted .44 RM and has enough momentum to hit someone wearing body armour with sledge-hammer authority. If dissipated by even a single layer of wallboard, the shot pattern of 35 gm/1 1/4 oz of #6 shot is such that the worst you are likely to do to someone in the next room in the event of a miss is to put their eye out.

Thus, with a scattergun the equation goes: against the subject up close, you are sure of a one-shot stop, most everyone else is in the clear.

The 5.56x45 mm/.223 Rem. is an okay round for varmint shooing, but it is forbidden to use against anything larger than coyotes in most locales by virtue of being inadequate. If you hit a deer with one it may die, but will likely run a km or more first. A human may die, but will often be able to get off one or more shots of return fire first.

A 7.5x55 mm is better in terms of a one-shot stop, but has the drawback of overpenetration, (as does the 5.56x45 mm to a lesser extent).

For home defense, long range is not a factor. If someone is in the next Kanton, you really do not have to worry about them. A pistol, being primarily a short-range defensive firearm, is a better choice than is a rifle, but requires more training to be used effectively.

There is some discussion regarding the effectiveness of this facet of operation, but racking the action on a Remington 870 reportedly has a more profound effect on an intruder than does firing a warning shot - particularly when this is accompanied by a blinding light in one's eyes.

As an aside, asking which firearm is "safe" is like asking how "safe" skydiving is. People have been killed with Daisy BB guns, guns with "safeties" applied have killed people and so forth.

If you ever have to use a firearm in self-defense, the issue is in doubt in the first place. The concern at that point is the greatest effectiveness from a defensive standpoint, with the lowest likelihood of collateral damage. On the basis of these criteria, the scattergun rules.


BSBD,

Winsor

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PiLFy    3

PiLFy
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i know i can make headshots @300yards with iron-sights; i also know i can make EASY headshots with a scope @600yards. that is with the .223, also, i can deal with any problems i might encounter very quickly and safely. i'm just not so familiar with the shotgun..

i can also make headshots at 25yards while i'm walking, within 2 seconds of finding a target, weapon down. as i said, i'm very well trained with my sig..

but for my purposes, the shotgun might be the better choice, i've understood so far.. just dont have a chance now really to get as surgical as i was with the sig!



W/all due respect there, VB. Paper targets aren't shooting back. Paper targets have known & safe backstops behind them. Real life shooting scenarios lack those niceties. Most defensive shootings occur @something like 20 feet. Forget the term surgical all together. Many here have given you good advice. Please take it. I hope you never need it.

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skyrider    0

skyrider
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i know i can make headshots @300yards with iron-sights; i also know i can make EASY headshots with a scope @600yards. that is with the .223, also, i can deal with any problems i might encounter very quickly and safely. i'm just not so familiar with the shotgun..

i can also make headshots at 25yards while i'm walking, within 2 seconds of finding a target, weapon down. as i said, i'm very well trained with my sig..

but for my purposes, the shotgun might be the better choice, i've understood so far.. just dont have a chance now really to get as surgical as i was with the sig!



goin out on a limb here...

your past few days of posting, Talking about killing, talking about guns, you doing OK? This tiem of year can be hard on people, Very hard when they are alone....PM me any time...

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virgin-burner    1

virgin-burner
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i know i can make headshots @300yards with iron-sights; i also know i can make EASY headshots with a scope @600yards. that is with the .223, also, i can deal with any problems i might encounter very quickly and safely. i'm just not so familiar with the shotgun..

i can also make headshots at 25yards while i'm walking, within 2 seconds of finding a target, weapon down. as i said, i'm very well trained with my sig..

but for my purposes, the shotgun might be the better choice, i've understood so far.. just dont have a chance now really to get as surgical as i was with the sig!



goin out on a limb here...

your past few days of posting, Talking about killing, talking about guns, you doing OK? This tiem of year can be hard on people, Very hard when they are alone....PM me any time...



dude.. honestly, i appreciate your offer, but the "killing" was about a game i play online, that is about (killing) - ever heard of "call of duty"!?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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mnealtx    0

mnealtx
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i know i can make headshots @300yards with iron-sights; i also know i can make EASY headshots with a scope @600yards. that is with the .223, also, i can deal with any problems i might encounter very quickly and safely. i'm just not so familiar with the shotgun..

i can also make headshots at 25yards while i'm walking, within 2 seconds of finding a target, weapon down. as i said, i'm very well trained with my sig..

but for my purposes, the shotgun might be the better choice, i've understood so far.. just dont have a chance now really to get as surgical as i was with the sig!



goin out on a limb here...

your past few days of posting, Talking about killing, talking about guns, you doing OK? This tiem of year can be hard on people, Very hard when they are alone....PM me any time...



dude.. honestly, i appreciate your offer, but the "killing" was about a game i play online, that is about (killing) - ever heard of "call of duty"!?



I'm hoping that your stats above aren't from COD, as well?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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virgin-burner    1

virgin-burner
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i know i can make headshots @300yards with iron-sights; i also know i can make EASY headshots with a scope @600yards. that is with the .223, also, i can deal with any problems i might encounter very quickly and safely. i'm just not so familiar with the shotgun..

i can also make headshots at 25yards while i'm walking, within 2 seconds of finding a target, weapon down. as i said, i'm very well trained with my sig..

but for my purposes, the shotgun might be the better choice, i've understood so far.. just dont have a chance now really to get as surgical as i was with the sig!



goin out on a limb here...

your past few days of posting, Talking about killing, talking about guns, you doing OK? This tiem of year can be hard on people, Very hard when they are alone....PM me any time...


dude.. honestly, i appreciate your offer, but the "killing" was about a game i play online, that is about (killing) - ever heard of "call of duty"!?


I'm hoping that your stats above aren't from COD, as well?


nope, there's no sig in the game! :P

as most swiss men, i was in the army, infantry, and have helped protecting the WEF a couple times, guarded embassies and residencies, including the US one, plus i was also at the G-10.. and in the course of that, i got some pretty extensive shooting-training! i've been in a shooting-club since the age of 14 as well! :)
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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