what's safer!?

[warpedskydiver 0]

Take an old heavy leather jacket, along with a shirt or vest and put a block of clay in it.


From that close you will just get blunt force trauma.

#4 buck or larger, always consider whats downrange and train the family to hit the deck.

[warpedskydiver 0]

If you already have an AR15, just get an upper, bolt and mags for 6.5mm Grendel.

It's very similar to 7.62NATO

[JohnMitchell 16]

I'll give that a "shot".

Also want to build a cross section of a drywall to take to the range. People always say that #8 won't penetrate. I doubt that.

[airtwardo 7]

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so, what will have more "impact"!?

In YOUR case I would recommend a French Maids outfit, combat boots and a Viking helmet.

Someone breaks in and you confront them...THEY WILL LEAVE, probably be scarred for life too!


And no holes in the drywall to fix in the morning.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[warpedskydiver 0]

Nail it to a 2x4 frame, otherwise there is no tension or strength in the drywall.

Both sides!

[warpedskydiver 0]

I have been able to make frangible penetrate, HP stop and BTs fragment.

It all depends on angle and distance.

[millertime24 8]

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#8 is for little birds, if a sparrow breaks in use that

REALLY!?! Let me shoot YOU with it and see what happens. My point was is that it wont go through the walls, but WILL go into a bad guy causing him to think twice about his plans about taking your shit.

Muff #5048

[warpedskydiver 0]

Oh geez, why would you want to get into that?

If that were the situation you would be seriously outgunned by someone that just might be intent on killing everyone.

See what I am getting at?

[warpedskydiver 0]

When you are kicking doors, would you be worried about #8 birdshot?

Look how little mass the bbs have, remember that a person is WAY larger than a quail.

It does not work reliably on a duck.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Never shoot to injure, shooting is for one reason only.

I hope you understand this idea.

[millertime24 8]

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When you are kicking doors, would you be worried about #8 birdshot?

Look how little mass the bbs have, remember that a person is WAY larger than a quail.

It does not work reliably on a duck.

My guess is that ALL of those #8 bb's hitting you all at once at a velocity of about 1000fps would probably deter you from any criminal action you may have planned. Also, those "bb's" wont go through appt walls causing casualties in another room.

Muff #5048

[warpedskydiver 0]

Shooting is not for deterrence,


Don't they teach this stuff anymore?

What's your MOS?

[warpedskydiver 0]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

[millertime24 8]

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Shooting is not for deterrence,


Don't they teach this stuff anymore?

What's your MOS?

You're right. Shooting is no deterrence, however, it IS a valuable defence when shit hits the fan.

Muff #5048

[warpedskydiver 0]

You shoot to stop the threat, doing so without repeated shooting leaves you safer and less liable for legal actions.

[millertime24 8]

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You shoot to stop the threat, doing so without repeated shooting leaves you safer and less liable for legal actions.

What he said!

Though putting as much lead as possible into your prospective target is key in mitigating the need for MORE force.

Muff #5048

[kbordson 8]

I thought this was appropriate here



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY

[warpedskydiver 0]

I just saved that URL to share with friends, thanks Karen!

[freethefly 6]

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In our state, Washington, it's illegal to hunt big game with any caliber less than .240, so the .223 won't cut it.

Here in Missouri, any centerfire weapon may be used, including a 22lr. I wouldn't recommend using a 22 for deer, however. I prefer my 30-06.

Hell, you can use an atlatl if you want.

From Mo. Dept. of Conservation website:

Methods allowed during all portions of the firearms deer season, except the muzzleloader portion.

* centerfire pistol, revolver or rifle using expanding-type bullets. Legal ammunition includes lead bullets, copper bullets and bullets made of other material designed to expand.
* shotgun (including .410) with slugs only
* air-powered gun, .40 caliber or larger, charged only from an external high compression power source (external hand pump, air tank, or air compressor)
* a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearm .40 caliber or larger and capable of firing only a single projectile at one discharge; in-lines and scopes are allowed
* multiple-barreled muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms and/or muzzleloading or cap-and-ball handguns, including revolvers, .40 caliber or larger are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball rifle
* a longbow, compound bow or recurve bow of any draw weight; hand-held string releasing devices, illuminated sights, scopes and quickpoint sights are allowed
* crossbow
* atlatl, which is defined as a rod or narrow board-like device used to launch, through a throwing motion of the arm, a dart 5 to 8 feet in length.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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so, what wiill have more "impact"!?

.223 rem. or the 12-gauge, fried from a remington 500 or a sig-550 respecitvely!?

If I'm understanding you correctly, the 12gu will. The problem with the .223 (thats what we use in the military here in the US) is that the round goes straight through the target imparting only a small ammt of its energy. If you want to put someone on the floor then the 12gu with a light load (such as #8 shot) is the ticket.

.223 M193 and M855 usually have great terminal ballistics provided that they arrive at their destination at 2700fps. The spin isn't enough to stabilise them in material denser than air so they start to yaw and then fragment.

A 14.5" barrel only gets you 45 meters of useful range, and even at a full 20" it's not a long range round.

[kawisixer01 0]

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?

I assume you mean for hunting deer? Shotguns are much safer. Regular slugs are in the dirt @<200yds. Sabot rounds don't go much farther. A .223 will ricochet off a branch & go who knows where. It's a high velocity round w/a small projectile. Why are you limiting your choices? There are many great calibers around. Is there limited availability in Switzerland?

Actually a study done here in Wisconsin in conjunction with the DNR showed that shotguns were no "safer" than rifles. There was also a study in PA that showed similar results. The main claim is that the large mass of a slug allows it to ricochet off the ground and other objects. Link to a WI story
"http://www.qdma.com/forums/archive/index.php/index.php?t-18845.html"

[virgin-burner 1]

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i own a 12-gauge AND a .223 assault-rifle!.. so fuck you!

just aint sure what's better for "home-protection", eg. what should i keep under my pillow!

In our state, Washington, it's illegal to hunt big game with any caliber less than .240, so the .223 won't cut it. There's a reason why it's nicknamed "the Poodle Shooter."

Get some sabot or slug rounds for your 12 ga. That ought to do the trick. If you swing by my house, I can let you borrow one of my .30'06's.

i think that could have been the old round, 7.5mm!?

the sig-550 is .223 remington

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[PiLFy 3]

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so, what wiill have more "impact"!?

.223 rem. or the 12-gauge, fried from a remington 500 or a sig-550 respecitvely!?

Blah, blah, blah... This thread is just droning on & on. A 12G will stop a charging lion in its tracks. Except for some trolls on this site. There is no arguing that point. Double ought buck has been the standard combat load since WW1. It works great, but can over-penetrate. Experiment for yourself, or look up the myriad of home defense articles on line. Better wait until tomorrow, though. That's best done without a hangover. Happy B-Day, kid.

[JohnRich 4]

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i own a 12-gauge AND a .223 assault-rifle!..
just aint sure what's better for "home-protection"

You should have told us that in your very first message. Everyone has been guessing about what application you intend, like hunting, and what type of game. The intended use has everything to do with determining which is the best option.

For home defense: The shotgun.

[JohnRich 4]

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A .223 will go through several walls (or 4,000+yds) until it hits someone innocent.

A .223 won't go 4,000 yards if aimed normally at something horizontally. You have to get very specialized to even get it to go 1,000 yards.

If you aim it up in the air like a howitzer, it might go that distance, but then it's not going to kill anyone because it will have lost all it's velocity and will simple be freefalling on the way down.

And it's most likely that the bullet will hit and be stopped by something other than innocent people - while you seem to suggest that the bullet will go on forever until it finds a person in which to expend its energy.