murder during a B an E, who's at fault?

[masterrig 1]

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you cant shoot them in the back if they try to flee. inside and facing you in order for it to be self defense.

You can in Texas. Not self-defense but you are allowed to shoot somebody to protect your property. Even in the back.

It's not quite that clear-cut - there are conditions attached to it.

If a thief is fleeing, you can only legally shoot the thief in the back if:
- It is night time,
- The property cannot be recovered by any other means, and
- The use of less than deadly force would expose the actor to the risk of death or serious bodily injury.

We had a case recently here in West Texas where a couple teen gang-bangers broke into a man's classic T-Bird and stole the stereo. The owner stepped out of his house and saw his car stereo under the guy's arm, running down the street. He fired one time, striking the guy in the butt. The car/home owner, was 'no-billed'. The thing is, the guy who stole the stereo 'could' sue the car/home owner civilly. In this case, the bad guy didn't sue.


Chuck

[Croc 0]

Here in the State of Indiana the law is clear: if you break into Croc's house while he's there, he can shoot you.

Don't know about anybody else.

BTW Merry Christmas everybody!

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[rhaig 0]

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you cant shoot them in the back if they try to flee. inside and facing you in order for it to be self defense.

You can in Texas. Not self-defense but you are allowed to shoot somebody to protect your property. Even in the back.

It's not quite that clear-cut - there are conditions attached to it.

If a thief is fleeing, you can only legally shoot the thief in the back if:
- It is night time,
- The property cannot be recovered by any other means, and
- The use of less than deadly force would expose the actor to the risk of death or serious bodily injury.

We had a case recently here in West Texas where a couple teen gang-bangers broke into a man's classic T-Bird and stole the stereo. The owner stepped out of his house and saw his car stereo under the guy's arm, running down the street. He fired one time, striking the guy in the butt. The car/home owner, was 'no-billed'. The thing is, the guy who stole the stereo 'could' sue the car/home owner civilly. In this case, the bad guy didn't sue.


Chuck

unless it's recently changed, TX has a law saying that you can't file civil suit against someone if the event you're suing about happened as a result of a crime you committed against them.

--
Rob

[mnealtx 0]

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you cant shoot them in the back if they try to flee. inside and facing you in order for it to be self defense.

You can in Texas. Not self-defense but you are allowed to shoot somebody to protect your property. Even in the back.

It's not quite that clear-cut - there are conditions attached to it.

If a thief is fleeing, you can only legally shoot the thief in the back if:
- It is night time,
- The property cannot be recovered by any other means, and
- The use of less than deadly force would expose the actor to the risk of death or serious bodily injury.

We had a case recently here in West Texas where a couple teen gang-bangers broke into a man's classic T-Bird and stole the stereo. The owner stepped out of his house and saw his car stereo under the guy's arm, running down the street. He fired one time, striking the guy in the butt. The car/home owner, was 'no-billed'. The thing is, the guy who stole the stereo 'could' sue the car/home owner civilly. In this case, the bad guy didn't sue.


Chuck

unless it's recently changed, TX has a law saying that you can't file civil suit against someone if the event you're suing about happened as a result of a crime you committed against them.

I don't think it's applicable to the 'mischief in the night' law:

"Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY [AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE]. A [It is an affirmative defense to a civil action for damages for personal injury or death that the] defendant who uses force or[, at the time the cause of action arose, was justified in using] deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 [Section 9.32], Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s [against a person who at the time of the] use of force or deadly force, as applicable [was committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the defendant]."

Texas Penal Code 9:32 is titled "Deadly Force In Defense Of Person"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[masterrig 1]

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you cant shoot them in the back if they try to flee. inside and facing you in order for it to be self defense.

You can in Texas. Not self-defense but you are allowed to shoot somebody to protect your property. Even in the back.

It's not quite that clear-cut - there are conditions attached to it.

If a thief is fleeing, you can only legally shoot the thief in the back if:
- It is night time,
- The property cannot be recovered by any other means, and
- The use of less than deadly force would expose the actor to the risk of death or serious bodily injury.

We had a case recently here in West Texas where a couple teen gang-bangers broke into a man's classic T-Bird and stole the stereo. The owner stepped out of his house and saw his car stereo under the guy's arm, running down the street. He fired one time, striking the guy in the butt. The car/home owner, was 'no-billed'. The thing is, the guy who stole the stereo 'could' sue the car/home owner civilly. In this case, the bad guy didn't sue.


Chuck

unless it's recently changed, TX has a law saying that you can't file civil suit against someone if the event you're suing about happened as a result of a crime you committed against them.

It's not likely they'd win but anyone can sue anyone.


Chuck

[Niki1 1]

Here in UT you wouldn't be charged for "murder". It would be considered self defense.

Anywhwre near Virgin? If so we can get together for a cold one, we go there a lot!


Be careful, man. I'm thinking if you get caught any where near a virgin YOU might get shot in self defense.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[Andy9o8 2]

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unless it's recently changed, TX has a law saying that you can't file civil suit against someone if the event you're suing about happened as a result of a crime you committed against them.

Mnealtx is correct; and to the extent you're on the right track, you're way over-simplifying. It's not that you cannot sue; it's that if you do sue, the person you sue can use your criminality as an affirmative defense (meaning the burden of proving the defense is on the person you sue) in the civil lawsuit. And even still, TX law does not give a person unrestrained carte-blanche to use any level of violence in response to any level of crime being committed against a person or their property. If the amount or nature of force used by the crime victim is deemed excessive or unwarranted under the circumstances, you can bet the DA will prosecute, and you can bet that chances are high that such a defense to a civil lawsuit stands a good chance of either being disallowed by the judge or rejected by the jury.

[tkhayes 348]

I remember in Calgary, a drugstore owner shot a fleeing robber in the back with a 12 gauge in the parking lot. He was charged with all kinds of stuff and the trial went on for a very long time. He was found not guilty by a jury as they decided 'his life and his family's life was in danger at the time'

Armed accomplices were still in the store with his family and they were still 'in danger'. No one in the general public really disagreed, but it polarized the population I remember and was the talk all over the country for a while.

But it showed how the systems vary even within Canada. While the trial was underway in Calgary, a Quebec convenience store was robbed and the storekeeper shot the robber in the back of the head while he was leaving the store. No charges were even filed.

After the Calgary robbery which was blocks from my house, I substituted my shotgun in the closet for a baseball bat.

Shoot someone in Canada, for whatever reason, there is a pretty good chance that you are going to face some trouble. Beat them with a baseball bat until they stop twitching, and you can always say "Hey, the guy took a swing at me and I overreacted"

Strange indeed.

[Southern_Man 0]

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you cant shoot them in the back if they try to flee. inside and facing you in order for it to be self defense.

You can in Texas. Not self-defense but you are allowed to shoot somebody to protect your property. Even in the back.

It's not quite that clear-cut - there are conditions attached to it.

If a thief is fleeing, you can only legally shoot the thief in the back if:
- It is night time,
- The property cannot be recovered by any other means, and
- The use of less than deadly force would expose the actor to the risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Yup, it all comes down to

1. The specific facts of the case
2. The attitude of the DA and/or Judge in the jurisdiction.

Same as in the original post and question.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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...Shoot someone in Canada, for whatever reason, there is a pretty good chance that you are going to face some trouble...

If you shoot someone in the US, there's a pretty good chance that you will be arrested.

Handcuffed, booked and thrown in jail.

You may or may not face charges.
You may or may not be convicted.

A lot of that depends on the attitudes of the local PD and prosecutor. Look at the gun possesion case in New Jersey for an example of that.

It will not be fun, simple or cheap.

I was taught that if I pull a gun out in public and point it at someone, plan on being arrested and spending $5k in legal bills.

If I actually pull the trigger, it will cost more like $20k.

My life is worth that, but my car stereo isn't.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Niki1 1]

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...Shoot someone in Canada, for whatever reason, there is a pretty good chance that you are going to face some trouble...

If you shoot someone in the US, there's a pretty good chance that you will be arrested.

Handcuffed, booked and thrown in jail.

You may or may not face charges.
You may or may not be convicted.

A lot of that depends on the attitudes of the local PD and prosecutor. Look at the gun possesion case in New Jersey for an example of that.

It will not be fun, simple or cheap.

I was taught that if I pull a gun out in public and point it at someone, plan on being arrested and spending $5k in legal bills.

If I actually pull the trigger, it will cost more like $20k.

My life is worth that, but my car stereo isn't.

All that only happens if the polece get involved. I live in a pretty rural area on a dead end road with not many other houses around. If some one breaks into my house, I don't plan on calling the cops.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[AggieDave 6]

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I was taught that if I pull a gun out in public and point it at someone, plan on being arrested and spending $5k in legal bills.

If I actually pull the trigger, it will cost more like $20k.

The average good-shoot/no-bill CHL defense in Texas is around $50k. That is $50,000 spent out of your own pocket to go through the inevitable legal process of a criminal investigation and then the inevitable civil suit. That is $50,000 spent out of your own pocket in a situation in which you were justified in your actions, no billed by a Grand Jury and no judgments levied against you in the civil action.

Now, to give a little balance to this situation: Police Officers also spend on average $50,000 defending themselves in civil suits (and sometimes at a Grand Jury) when defending themselves after a "good shoot." However, peace officers have the ability to join groups like TMPA or CLEAT who, if you're a member and the action occurred due to being a peace officer, then they will defend you at no cost (besides the yearly membership dues).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[masterrig 1]

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I was taught that if I pull a gun out in public and point it at someone, plan on being arrested and spending $5k in legal bills.

If I actually pull the trigger, it will cost more like $20k.

The average good-shoot/no-bill CHL defense in Texas is around $50k. That is $50,000 spent out of your own pocket to go through the inevitable legal process of a criminal investigation and then the inevitable civil suit. That is $50,000 spent out of your own pocket in a situation in which you were justified in your actions, no billed by a Grand Jury and no judgments levied against you in the civil action.

Now, to give a little balance to this situation: Police Officers also spend on average $50,000 defending themselves in civil suits (and sometimes at a Grand Jury) when defending themselves after a "good shoot." However, peace officers have the ability to join groups like TMPA or CLEAT who, if you're a member and the action occurred due to being a peace officer, then they will defend you at no cost (besides the yearly membership dues).

We were not told that in any CHL classes I attended. It'll make you think.


Chuck

[mnealtx 0]

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I was taught that if I pull a gun out in public and point it at someone, plan on being arrested and spending $5k in legal bills.

If I actually pull the trigger, it will cost more like $20k.

The average good-shoot/no-bill CHL defense in Texas is around $50k. That is $50,000 spent out of your own pocket to go through the inevitable legal process of a criminal investigation and then the inevitable civil suit. That is $50,000 spent out of your own pocket in a situation in which you were justified in your actions, no billed by a Grand Jury and no judgments levied against you in the civil action.

Now, to give a little balance to this situation: Police Officers also spend on average $50,000 defending themselves in civil suits (and sometimes at a Grand Jury) when defending themselves after a "good shoot." However, peace officers have the ability to join groups like TMPA or CLEAT who, if you're a member and the action occurred due to being a peace officer, then they will defend you at no cost (besides the yearly membership dues).

Looks like there's at least one place that can help us civvies with that:

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A CHLPP member is covered for any exposure of the member's weapon in any use of force in a self-defense incident in any state that recognizes a CHLPP member's Concealed Handgun license or Concealed Carry permit issued by any state licensing agency. For example, if you have a CHL issued by any state, you are covered if you were to be involved in an self-defense incident in any state that recognizes that state issued CHL. CHLPP offers a "Joint" plan which provides a substantial discount for two or more persons who join CHLPP together.

CHLPP will retain an experienced qualified local criminal defense attorney where you were arrested. The attorney CHLPP retains will pursue the member's case until there is a dismissal, no-bill by a Grand Jury (in those states which have a Grand Jury system), and the return of all your seized firearm(s) and related property. With CHLPP there are NO deductibles, co-pays, or limits. CHLPP members pay nothing out of their own pockets.

They don't provide legal services for any associated civil suit, however:

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CHLPP does not provide coverage for related civil lawsuit legal expenses. The liability coverage portion of your auto/homeowners policy may cover these expenses. Most states now have a "Castle Doctrine" which limits civil suits by the attacker in a self-defense situation.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706