Arizona Congresswoman, shot in the head

[Amazon 7]

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That post????... as the next post to that vile stinking pile of garbage....

Are you adding a few gallons to your own "infinite bucket of whine?"

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4035136#4035136

I think perhaps you two may have been subjected to so much of the worst of our society that you are forgetting the REAL victims of those you are forced to deal with daily. There are 5 dead in this case in AZ.

In restrospect.. If this is the state of the GUARDS v the INMATES in todays world... I guess there really is no help for those troubled kids that might once have been helped who end up being spree killers after all.

[Amazon 7]

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A two-word nastygram and then a pm lock-out?
I don't get it.

I got one too. It seems the post hit a homerun and someone is "Butt Sore" as I think I've heard it described. What a fucking child.

I will defer to your vast experience on that whole thing

I am quite sure.... the truth hurt on that one

Not that there is anything wrong with that

[lawrocket 3]

On substance:

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I dentify those who need help early and TREAT them.

Absolutely! It took you until today to get that out. I see now you've read and absorbed what I wrote 60 hours ago:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4034049#4034049

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[sarcasm]Let's not treat the mentally ill. No. Let's make sure that we keep guns, knives, and pipes away from them.[/sarcasm]

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TREATING THE MENTALLY ILL, I would think, would save lives. Instead of waiting for them to blow so they can be in prison because they killed people

Gee. How about that? I said it two days ago, Jeanne. Let it cut off a revenue stream for lawyers. (More of a revenue trickle. I seriously doubt that there's a pretty penny to be made defending Loughner - the guy, by all appearances, doesn't have much.

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I know that pisses off the lawyers who see that as a threat to their revenue stream ... god forbid the shrinks should get all that money instead of the lawyers after some jackwagon shoots 20 or more people.

Quite the contrary. There's nobody to screw in criminal defense. It's why I never touched it. Family and Real Property - that's where the truly personal hosings can be done, so that's what I do.

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Personally I dont think whackadoodles deserve to have weapons

Nice of ya. Again, I credit you with putting "I think" in front of it. No room for argument when you talk about what you think. When framed that way, at worst we can agree to disagree. Personally, I don't think "deserve" has anything to do with "rights." They are put there. And until those rights are stripped with due process, then denial of rights is capricious.

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How many of those 34 a day are killed by the mentally defective that should never have been allowed to excercise those rights that the SCOTUS already said they should be denied.

Probably far fewer than are killed by sociopaths. Would you suggest identifying sociopaths? Hell no! Sociopathy is not a condition that can be treated. Instead, you'd prefer to take the sick and use them as examples, right?

You advocate treating mentally ill WORSE than we treat sociopaths. Indeed, it is my understanding that sociopaths are easily identifiable early in life - they are the ones in and out of juvenile hall. Just keep them in prison, right? We know they'll be back but our system is such that you commit a crime, you get sentenced, and you serve your time, and then you get released. Commit another crime, repeat ad infinitum.

I think the mentally ill should be treated. However, until such time as they are a cognizable threat, we allow them to be crazy. Nothing in due process prevents a person from admitting himself or herself for treatment.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

Sorry but I equate spree killers, sociopaths or whatever the wifey has described for you with her vast clinical experience of working with the dregs of society as mentally defective certainly not deserving of being able to walk into a shop and buy weapons.

I guess YMMV

Out here in NON professional psychiatric land where we get to live most of the time with a more normal group of human beings ( or is that just potential victims of those you champion)... what is a girl to think

Wow that is a lot of MENTALLY ILL GUNMEN hits

[lawrocket 3]

Interesting - When she's not working a prisons, she's working for a cut rate at group homes for kids providing psychiatric treatment. Even more interesting, the people standing in the way of her helping these kids are the parole officers, social workers and court staff who operate rather slowly in approving her medical advice.

You are talking about a person who IS OUT THERE EVERY WEEKEND TREATING MENTAL ILLNESS IN JUVENILES. Like it or not, the systems that you are talking about are in existence. She can do this with juveniles because they are wards of the court. She is out there doing her best to get the Loughners of the world stable in the teen years. No, she's not out there with the goal of preventing mass murder. She's treating a medical condition.

Yes, DFWAJG is a person who is actually DOING something. You bitch and rant while she works. You say these people need help. She gives that help. She knows the limitations that she works under and respects the limitations. Furthermore, she understands WHY these limitations exist, even though it means that she can't do everything she's capable of doing.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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Interesting - When she's not working a prisons, she's working for a cut rate at group homes for kids providing psychiatric treatment. Even more interesting, the people standing in the way of her helping these kids are the parole officers, social workers and court staff who operate rather slowly in approving her medical advice.

You are talking about a person who IS OUT THERE EVERY WEEKEND TREATING MENTAL ILLNESS IN JUVENILES. Like it or not, the systems that you are talking about are in existence. She can do this with juveniles because they are wards of the court. She is out there doing her best to get the Loughners of the world stable in the teen years. No, she's not out there with the goal of preventing mass murder. She's treating a medical condition.

Yes, DFWAJG is a person who is actually DOING something. You bitch and rant while she works. You say these people need help. She gives that help. She knows the limitations that she works under and respects the limitations. Furthermore, she understands WHY these limitations exist, even though it means that she can't do everything she's capable of doing.

Interesting indeed but still no excuse

So do a better job already huh

[lawrocket 3]

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Sorry but I equate spree killers, sociopaths or whatever the wifey has described for you with her vast clinical experience of working with the dregs of society as mentally defective certainly not deserving of being able to walk into a shop and buy weapons.

And that's your problem. You don't see the difference between mental illness and pure evil. This is the "piss poor knowledge" that was referred to.

A sociopath/psychopath are sane but have zero regard for the feelings of others and feel no remorse or guilt. This is usualy identifiable early in life - teenage years. Sociopaths cannot be treated - in fact, treatment is counterproductive because sociopaths use psychiatric/psychological treatment to further practice manipulation and gain insights at being a more effective asshole. A sociopath is always the same person.

An insane person doesn't know right from wrong. A person who is mentally ill, once treated, knows what he/she did and feels remorse and horror at what they did when sanity is re-established. Treatment can help them. A person with mental illness is, in effect, a different person depending on whether they are in treatment or not.

Aside from the juveniles, the people she treats will be barred because she sees nobody who hasn't been adjudicated insane or in prison for a felony. There are no worries in that department.

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Out here in NON professional psychiatric land

Right. And she suggested that professional psychiatric land is not a place for non-professionals. Even me. A baseline of knowledge may change the way you think, which is, of course, the best reason to remain ignorant.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[1969912 0]

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I know that pisses off the lawyers who see that as a threat to their revenue stream ... god forbid the shrinks should get all that money instead of the lawyers after some jackwagon shoots 20 or more people.

Amazon,
If simply by your rants that I have observed over time, here, would cause me any concern of a "jackwagon" who would shoot em up at the dz, I would have to dispatch the paddy wagon to your door, hold you down, and give you a good dose of Haldol decanoate. Between your angst for others who you disagree, your piss poor knowledge of anything about mental health (keep in mind, I am licensed in 4 states, and have worked at three state forensic institutions, one state hospital and 7 prisons, treating the worst of the worst, that no one else wants to treat) and your rants and ramblings, I suspect that there are a few screws that can be tightened in your own brain. This, however, does not, thankfully, for you, give me justification to lock you up, take away your guns, knives, plastic sporks, and nail clippers, and start forcing you into treatment. You have as much right to be as nutty as you are as the rest of us. Even as a psychiatrist, I can no more predict who will blow than you can. Forcing treatment in a blanket fashion because someone "may blow" is not appropriate. Although, if someday, on dz.com, it's announced that Amazon took out a few jumpers at the dz, it wouldn't surprise me.

Even though I'm an advocate the free exchange of firearms between people, I would NEVER sell a firearm to amazon. Her posts scare the shit out of me. She should, however, have the right to purchase firearms from others.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Amazon 7]

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I know that pisses off the lawyers who see that as a threat to their revenue stream ... god forbid the shrinks should get all that money instead of the lawyers after some jackwagon shoots 20 or more people.

Amazon,
If simply by your rants that I have observed over time, here, would cause me any concern of a "jackwagon" who would shoot em up at the dz, I would have to dispatch the paddy wagon to your door, hold you down, and give you a good dose of Haldol decanoate. Between your angst for others who you disagree, your piss poor knowledge of anything about mental health (keep in mind, I am licensed in 4 states, and have worked at three state forensic institutions, one state hospital and 7 prisons, treating the worst of the worst, that no one else wants to treat) and your rants and ramblings, I suspect that there are a few screws that can be tightened in your own brain. This, however, does not, thankfully, for you, give me justification to lock you up, take away your guns, knives, plastic sporks, and nail clippers, and start forcing you into treatment. You have as much right to be as nutty as you are as the rest of us. Even as a psychiatrist, I can no more predict who will blow than you can. Forcing treatment in a blanket fashion because someone "may blow" is not appropriate. Although, if someday, on dz.com, it's announced that Amazon took out a few jumpers at the dz, it wouldn't surprise me.

Even though I'm an advocate the free exchange of firearms between people, I would NEVER sell a firearm to amazon. Her posts scare the shit out of me. She should, however, have the right to purchase firearms from others.

This thread is about a murderer in AZ who tried to assasinate a Congresswoman.

And now yet another personal attack. It never ceases to amaze me that people are ignorant of that little rule about not playing the player. Amazing what some can get away with here Mods????

[lawrocket 3]

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So do a better job already huh

Jeanne, I can tell you that as a lawyer, I'm able to do things that non-lawyers cannot do. But there's a flip side - there are things that lawyers simply cannot do. A judge is not empowered to commit somebody simply because the person is nutty as a fruitcake.

DFWAJG can commit somebody and force psychiatric treatment and evaluation. She has that power, but ONLY if that person demonstrates a real and cognizable threat to him/herself or others. And then, the person may be held for only 72 hours and must either be released or there must be a court order to hold that person.

This was in response to abuses where a person would be committed and could not get out.

Imagine having your hands tied at work. Imagine knowing the reasons why your hands are tied and appreciating it. But it still doesn't make it easy. I can tell you that I'm personally fed up with the law - what it cannot do, what it does do, and how much is left up to a third person (judge or jury) to apply rules that are not based on fairness but on consistency. Agreeing with the reasons for the rules that cause a client to be screwed actually makes it tougher.

I feel for the mentally ill, who are lumped in with evil. Most are not evil. They are sick and while many cannot be cured, most can be made better. My wife works with those who are already off the streets. Sadly, so many who belong in hospitals are in prisons because, in respecting their rights to liberty, we couldn't force them to accept help. And, society is made up of those who will lump the sick in with the evil. The sick are placed with the evil. The evil predators then victimize the sick even further.

It's awful. It's horrible what happens to them. I wish it wasn't that way. But it is. We can only encourage people to get help. Funding for that? I'm all for it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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So do a better job already huh

Jeanne, I can tell you that as a lawyer, I'm able to do things that non-lawyers cannot do. But there's a flip side - there are things that lawyers simply cannot do. A judge is not empowered to commit somebody simply because the person is nutty as a fruitcake.

DFWAJG can commit somebody and force psychiatric treatment and evaluation. She has that power, but ONLY if that person demonstrates a real and cognizable threat to him/herself or others. And then, the person may be held for only 72 hours and must either be released or there must be a court order to hold that person.

This was in response to abuses where a person would be committed and could not get out.

Imagine having your hands tied at work. Imagine knowing the reasons why your hands are tied and appreciating it. But it still doesn't make it easy. I can tell you that I'm personally fed up with the law - what it cannot do, what it does do, and how much is left up to a third person (judge or jury) to apply rules that are not based on fairness but on consistency. Agreeing with the reasons for the rules that cause a client to be screwed actually makes it tougher.

I feel for the mentally ill, who are lumped in with evil. Most are not evil. They are sick and while many cannot be cured, most can be made better. My wife works with those who are already off the streets. Sadly, so many who belong in hospitals are in prisons because, in respecting their rights to liberty, we couldn't force them to accept help. And, like you, the sick are lumped in with the evil and the sick are placed with the evil, where they are victimized by the predators.

It's awful. It's horrible what happens to them.

The truly evil need a very special place to retire to permanently.

Treating those who can be helped to have a livable existence should be more of a priority. They certainly do not belong in prisons with the others

That is where a kinder gentler society that actually takes care of its least fortunate with a few measly dollars compared to the vast sums spent for the "defense" industry comes into play.
Yet here in Speakers corner we get the dog eat dog world analogies. Remember that thread councilor???

I guess one of the "dogs" bit 20 innocent people

I truly believe that societies are judged by how our least fortunate are treated. I would say that those who are mentally incapacitated certainly fit that bill, and all we seem to do for them is toss them out into the street when the federal budgets were eliminated with the HOPE that the states would pick up the tab. IT seems that did not happen

[lawrocket 3]

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I truly believe that socities are judged by how our least fortunate are treated

Forcing people into institutions is not a society that gives its citizens dignity. Searching for reasons to put people in hospitals or prisons because they seem weird? I would judge that society harshly. Taking away rights from people because they are sick, it seems, would be a damned lousy society.

Also, DFWAJG made a point - psychiatrists cannot predict which people will blow and become mass murderers, etc. Most people with psychiatric illness harm nobody but themselves. Most homeless don't attack people - they are on the receiving end of attacks by criminals. It's pretty neat seeing my wife buy food for a homeless guy. She's shown me how to spot the diffference between a homeless person and a panhandler (if there's a shopping cart with a bunch of shit in it - homeless. If nothing but a cardboard sign - panhandler.) She spots the difference between a sick person and a creep.

These people - the mentally ill - are examples of the cost of freedom. The cost of liberty. The orderly society? We had that previously where they were stuffed away in institutions and lobotomized in assembly line fashion - they weren't threats and were rather easy to take care of.

There isn't a middle ground between letting them be free or seizing them and institutionalizing them. The ill may self-refer and get themselves into a hospital. But it's their choice. We cannot force them without a credible threat of harm to themselves or to others.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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I truly believe that socities are judged by how our least fortunate are treated

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Forcing people into institutions is not a society that gives its citizens dignity. Searching for reasons to put people in hospitals or prisons because they seem weird? I would judge that society harshly. Taking away rights from people because they are sick, it seems, would be a damned lousy society.

Letting them starve in the streets or arresting them for petty crimes like stealing food and putting them in jail with violent offenders is better???

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These people - the mentally ill - are examples of the cost of freedom. The cost of liberty. The orderly society? We had that previously where they were stuffed away in institutions and lobotomized in assembly line fashion - they weren't threats and were rather easy to take care of.

You only see an institution as you want to see it with visionbs of Nurse Cratchet. There are OTHER altrernatives like a group home ... or something else that the professionals should be able to come up with. ( and if you do have people who abuse them there like a Nurse Cratchet... punish them to the full extent of the law) Freedom should not entail squalor and having to live worse than many in third world countries who at least have a dirt floor hut fer crissakes.

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There isn't a middle ground between letting them be free or seizing them and institutionalizing them.

Yes there is, if we as a society had the will to do it.

[DFWAJG 4]

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The truly evil need a very special place to retire to permanently.

Treating those who can be helped to have a livable existence should be more of a priority. They certainly do not belong in prisons with the others

That is where a kinder gentler society that actually takes care of its least fortunate with a few measly dollars compared to the vast sums spent for the "defense" industry comes into play.

This is the most sense you have made all night. And yes, they deserve better. We should have programs that are available to help these people. But we don't. Interestingly, I have available better mental health services to deliver in the prison system, than I can in the outside world. It's one of the reasons why I have chosen to work in the forensic setting...because I can get them care there. In the civilian world, I can't. I have to argue for hours with some doctor on the other end of the line about why my patient needs inpatient care, only to be turned down by the insurance doctor because "the patient doesn't meet criteria for admission." It was frustrating. I hung it up after one year, and returned to the system where I knew that I could give them care.

[Amazon 7]

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The truly evil need a very special place to retire to permanently.

Treating those who can be helped to have a livable existence should be more of a priority. They certainly do not belong in prisons with the others

That is where a kinder gentler society that actually takes care of its least fortunate with a few measly dollars compared to the vast sums spent for the "defense" industry comes into play.

This is the most sense you have made all night. And yes, they deserve better. We should have programs that are available to help these people. But we don't. Interestingly, I have available better mental health services to deliver in the prison system, than I can in the outside world. It's one of the reasons why I have chosen to work in the forensic setting...because I can get them care there. In the civilian world, I can't. I have to argue for hours with some doctor on the other end of the line about why my patient needs inpatient care, only to be turned down by the insurance doctor because "the patient doesn't meet criteria for admission." It was frustrating. I hung it up after one year, and returned to the system where I knew that I could give them care.

I have been argueing those points with the dog eat dog crowd for a VERY long time. I have never waivered from that point, to help those who need help, instead of lessening ALL of us by telling people to pull themselves up by non existant bootstraps. I guess you misssed those posts though

[DFWAJG 4]

I have been argueing those points with the dog eat dog crowd for a VERY long time. I have never waivered from that point, to help those who need help, instead of lessening ALL of us by telling people to pull themselves up by non existant bootstraps. I guess you misssed those posts though...

No, what you do is rant and rave on and on and on, with a bunch of insulting adjectives thrown in, so that it is so easy to get lost about what the hell you are talking about, that you end up missing your own point. When you speak clearly and concisely, you are more effective.

[Amazon 7]

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I have been argueing those points with the dog eat dog crowd for a VERY long time. I have never waivered from that point, to help those who need help, instead of lessening ALL of us by telling people to pull themselves up by non existant bootstraps. I guess you misssed those posts though...

No, what you do is rant and rave on and on and on, with a bunch of insulting adjectives thrown in, so that it is so easy to get lost about what the hell you are talking about, that you end up missing your own point. When you speak clearly and concisely, you are more effective.

But its far more fun when you go off on a rant and totally nutup

[Butters 0]

It appears as though I was wrong before. It's blame others, whine to moderators, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment. You appear anti-social and paranoid ... you don't have a gun do you?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Amazon 7]

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It appears as though I was wrong before. It's blame others, whine to moderators, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment. You appear anti-social and paranoid ... you don't have a gun do you?

Ah ... yet another personal attack... have you had ANYTHING to add in this thread or others... or do you just instantly see any post by me, crawl out from under the bridge and go into tiny whiney BUTTers mode and become incapable of sticking to the subject of ANY thread

175 BUTTers attack posts

This obsession is really unhealthy

[Butters 0]

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It appears as though I was wrong before. It's blame others, whine to moderators, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment. You appear anti-social and paranoid ... you don't have a gun do you?

Ah ... yet another personal attack... have you had ANYTHING to add in this thread or others... or do you just instantly see any post by me, crawl out from under the bridge and go into tiny whiney BUTTers mode and become incapable of sticking to the subject of ANY thread

I'm just trying to do my civic duty according to some posters by identifying and reporting behavior that appears to be anti-social, paranoid, violent, etc...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Amazon 7]

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It appears as though I was wrong before. It's blame others, whine to moderators, make a veiled personal attack, then a trolling comment. You appear anti-social and paranoid ... you don't have a gun do you?

Ah ... yet another personal attack... have you had ANYTHING to add in this thread or others... or do you just instantly see any post by me, crawl out from under the bridge and go into tiny whiney BUTTers mode and become incapable of sticking to the subject of ANY thread

I'm just trying to do my civic duty according to some posters by identifying and reporting behavior that appears to be anti-social, paranoid, violent, etc...

Some would call it stalking....as evidenced by your body of work

[Butters 0]

Thanks for the private message.

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seriously...

seek professional help

But I don't need professional (or amateur) help.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Amazon 7]

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Thanks for the private message.

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seriously...

seek professional help

But I don't need professional (or amateur) help.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

You just can't help yourself can you.

[Butters 0]

There were 13,636 murder victims in 2009. If we're going to go down the slippery slope then let's focus on the plank before we focus on the splinter ...

PS: Do you have a problem with the way I handle problems?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Amazon 7]

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There were 13,636 murder victims in 2009. If we're going to go down the slippery slope then let's focus on the plank before we focus on the splinter ...

PS: Do you have a problem with the way I handle problems?

Uh I really do not give a ratz ass and I dont really want to know what you handle on a daily basis..... really