Hook knives

[astleysean 0]

I've just got my UK "A" licence with the grand total of 19 jumps and thought I'd invite comments following my recent conversations.

1. Following passing AFF in DZ shop;-
"You need a hook knife now you're jumping solo"

OK, bought one and asked what it was for, told by instructor that if you get a line over your reserve, snip that one line. Obviously a freak occurrence.

2. At Manifest, by JM
"You're a student, take the knife off"

OK, remove knife.

3. Following week whilst kitting up, experienced bloke on lift looks across and sees my knife in bag.
"You might want to take that"
Ask JM told "If you've got one you might as well take it, not compulsory for students though"

4. Different DZ, get issued kit which comes with knife attached to chest strap. Assume they issued it deliberately (it was left by someone else in error). JM at Manifest "Students aren't allowed to carry knives". I reply with tongue in cheek that I'll sue if I get a line over my reserve and laugh. JM not amused. Senior instructor then physically removes knife and tells me I can have it when I'm not a student. It's not even my knife!

5. Two jumps later I've finished consols. Told "You MUST now carry knife, can't jump without one"

Back at first DZ tell CCI story. He looks it up and the book says you have to have one if you're licensed. Doesn't say you can't have one if you're not.



I fully accept that rules are important and that different DZs have different interpretations. Consistency would be nice though...

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

I've just got my UK "A" licence with the grand total of 19 jumps and thought I'd invite comments following my recent conversations.

1. Following passing AFF in DZ shop;-
"You need a hook knife now you're jumping solo"

OK, bought one and asked what it was for, told by instructor that if you get a line over your reserve, snip that one line. Obviously a freak occurrence.

2. At Manifest, by JM
"You're a student, take the knife off"

OK, remove knife.

3. Following week whilst kitting up, experienced bloke on lift looks across and sees my knife in bag.
"You might want to take that"
Ask JM told "If you've got one you might as well take it, not compulsory for students though"

4. Different DZ, get issued kit which comes with knife attached to chest strap. Assume they issued it deliberately (it was left by someone else in error). JM at Manifest "Students aren't allowed to carry knives". I reply with tongue in cheek that I'll sue if I get a line over my reserve and laugh. JM not amused. Senior instructor then physically removes knife and tells me I can have it when I'm not a student. It's not even my knife!

5. Two jumps later I've finished consols. Told "You MUST now carry knife, can't jump without one"

Back at first DZ tell CCI story. He looks it up and the book says you have to have one if you're licensed. Doesn't say you can't have one if you're not.



I fully accept that rules are important and that different DZs have different interpretations. Consistency would be nice though...

BPA seems to have a lot of wierd rules.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[winsor 236]

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I've just got my UK "A" licence with the grand total of 19 jumps and thought I'd invite comments following my recent conversations.

1. Following passing AFF in DZ shop;-
"You need a hook knife now you're jumping solo"

OK, bought one and asked what it was for, told by instructor that if you get a line over your reserve, snip that one line. Obviously a freak occurrence.

2. At Manifest, by JM
"You're a student, take the knife off"

OK, remove knife.

3. Following week whilst kitting up, experienced bloke on lift looks across and sees my knife in bag.
"You might want to take that"
Ask JM told "If you've got one you might as well take it, not compulsory for students though"

4. Different DZ, get issued kit which comes with knife attached to chest strap. Assume they issued it deliberately (it was left by someone else in error). JM at Manifest "Students aren't allowed to carry knives". I reply with tongue in cheek that I'll sue if I get a line over my reserve and laugh. JM not amused. Senior instructor then physically removes knife and tells me I can have it when I'm not a student. It's not even my knife!

5. Two jumps later I've finished consols. Told "You MUST now carry knife, can't jump without one"

Back at first DZ tell CCI story. He looks it up and the book says you have to have one if you're licensed. Doesn't say you can't have one if you're not.



I fully accept that rules are important and that different DZs have different interpretations. Consistency would be nice though...

A hook knife is a lot like a gun. In general, it is better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it, because when you need it you need it badly. In addition, in the hands of someone with a poor concept regarding its proper use, either one can get you killed or maimed in short order.

Students performing emergency procedures have been known to do all sorts of things, many of which would not occur to an experienced jumper.

Without knowing quite how to isolate the offending line before cutting (it's usually a steering line involved in a lineover), cutting lines can often make things worse to the point of unsurvivable. Chopping a lineover and going to reserve is a hell of a lot better than using available altitude doing rigging under canopy, unless you know just what you are doing.

By the time someone is licensed - or otherwise deemed a non-student - they are expected to have the level of responsibility necessary to use any tools appropriate for the occasion. One is (hopefully) more likely to make a swift and sure judgment call on the advisability of using the knife by that time.

FWIW, I would prefer that the person in charge said something along the lines of "you will be required to carry one of these in the near future, but for now you shall focus on basic emergency procedures if things go wrong. Let's just keep it simple for the time being, okay?" Imperious dicta never sat well with me, and my experience is that people given to such an approach all too often turned out to be wrong.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[DJL 235]

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I'd invite comments following my recent conversations.

Skydivers know exactly what they think they know.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DZJ 0]

Who told you that you needed one once you were jumping solo? As far as I can see, it's that faulty advice that caused the following misunderstandings, and the rule is just that licensed jumpers have to have a knife somewhere on their gear.

[matt-R1 0]

Hi there regarding the knife issue please find section copied from the BPA manual to which we should all adhear to "the rule book" so to speak

All FAI ‘A’ Certificate (Red) parachutists and above are required to carry a serviceable knife about their person, or on their equipment. The knife should be readily accessible.

So my humble thoughts only having 50 jumps under my belt, CH1, CH2, FS1 and B licence i would have not followed the JM instructions

Which DZ was it at?

A licence at 19 jumps thought you need at least 25?

Blue skies

[thelem 0]

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A licence at 19 jumps thought you need at least 25?

No, he was still on AFF consols - the shop had advised him that he needed a knife when he moved from AFF levels to consols.

I think a lot of jumpers assume that because students do not normally have knives they are not allowed to jump with them. The problem is not really the BPA rules, its that use of knives is not taught as part of the RAPS/AFF course - ideally your instructor would go through it with you just before you got your a-licence.

[diablopilot 2]

Welcome to the BPA.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 4]

And that will not be that last time you will receive conflicting advise for people who are supposed to know better.

Do as much research on your own, learn as much as you can. Then you can be the one they ask.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 643]

The problem is not really the BPA rules, its that use of knives is not taught as part of the RAPS/AFF course - ideally your instructor would go through it with you just before you got your a-licence.

[riggerrob 643]

Imperious dicta never sat well with me, and my experience is that people given to such an approach all too often turned out to be wrong.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[bob.dino 1]

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The "coolest" hook knife sheaths are made by Apex Base.

Have you got a link? I couldn't find it on their website, and I'm always interested in being one of the cool kids. I never was at school .

[damion75 0]

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A licence at 19 jumps thought you need at least 25?

Not in the UK, you just need to have reached Category 8 on the RAPS system or completed AFF and consols, and got CH1.

The BPA Ops Manual does require licenced skydivers (A or above) to wear a hook knife. Most DZs do not allow students to wear one on the simple basis that it is more likely to do harm than good - like putting nitrous oxide in a learner drivers car.

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.