more guns less crime

[Remster 30]

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http://www.whtc.com/news/articles/2011/jan/24/detroit-police-station-shooting/

One case where more guns did nothing to lessen the crime from happening.

Following your logic I suppose we should ban the cops from carrying guns.

Everyone except the criminals!
GET ON BOARD ALREADY!

ohhhhhh...The OP wants Russia type controls....yeaaaa that works well for them...

Why don't you go back to that banned bridge of yours...

Remster

[firemedic 7]

A friend in Phoenix sent this to me an hour ago. Not claiming it's true. Just funny.

Gun Control
Barack Obama at a recent rural elementary school assembly in East Texas, asked the audience for total quiet. Then, in the silence, he started to
slowly clap his hands once every few seconds, holding the audience in total silence.

Then he said into the microphone, 'Children, every time I clap my hands together, a child in America dies from gun violence.'

Then, little Richard Earl, with a proud East Texas drawl, pierced the quiet and said:
''Well, dumbass, stop clapping!'

[tkhayes 348]

actually the thread is titled 'more guns less crime', maybe you missed that.

I never claimed NO crime and you are simply reading the bits that please you and ignoring the bits that do not.

I am spoofing the argument of more guns = less crime given the example I cited and I stand by that argument.

[regulator 0]

How about getting a metal detector in the police station? Courthouses have them all the country...why not police stations? Apparently the whole "yeah but we've got guns to take care of them' really didnt make much difference in this case...sure the gunman is dead but there are still 4 cops recovering in the hospital. And no matter what laws you enforce to remove guns will prevent loons from going crazy and acquiring a gun to do their bidding.

[kelpdiver 2]

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actually the thread is titled 'more guns less crime', maybe you missed that.

I never claimed NO crime and you are simply reading the bits that please you and ignoring the bits that do not.

I am spoofing the argument of more guns = less crime given the example I cited and I stand by that argument.

Are you just putting on the piss with us?

That's exactly what you claim - you ask 'why didn't more guns keep this guy from getting himself killed trying to hurt cops?'

If your claim was really that it's not less, you would have to count all the other death by cop events over the past decade or two and show a trend line. But since you picked a singular event, you instead went for the all or nothing argument.

[Kennedy 0]

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How about getting a metal detector in the police station? Courthouses have them all the country...why not police stations?

How do you they didn't have one? Making assumptions, or have you seen a source that says they don't. The thing is, how would having one have helped in this case? The guy came through the door blasting. You think some little machine going beep and light up would have stopped him?

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Apparently the whole "yeah but we've got guns to take care of them' really didnt make much difference in this case...

Really? You think the shooter stopped for any reason other than the fact that the officers shot him? If he stopped killing because they shot him, then I'd say the whole guns-for-self-defense thing worked out pretty well.

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sure the gunman is dead but there are still 4 cops recovering in the hospital. And no matter what laws you enforce to remove guns will prevent loons from going crazy and acquiring a gun to do their bidding.

Really? I'm pretty sure heroin is illegal everywhere in the USA. How's that working out?
I'm pretty sure IEDs are illegal in Russia. How's that working out? I'm pretty sure alcohol was illegal during Prohibition. How'd that work out? There are even island nations that ban or severely limit gun ownership. Do you think they are free of violent gun crimes?

Banning things doesn't make them impossible to get, and madmen don't need guns to go on killing sprees. So why ban guns, if it wouldn't accomplish your goals.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PiLFy 3]

"NO guns would stop gun crime. More guns will only only mean more gun 'events' mostly bad ones, not too many good ones."

I'm sorry. These two sentences show me that you've virtually no powers of reason, remaining. There's no point in further discussions. Good Luck living in your fairy tales.

[JohnRich 4]

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actually the thread is titled 'more guns less crime', maybe you missed that.

I am spoofing the argument of more guns = less crime given the example I cited and I stand by that argument.

Yes, I recognized that coming from you, that thread title was sarcasm.

You can stand by your argument all you want, but it doesn't make it correct. I think the overwhelming majority of people are quite glad that those police officers had guns with which to defend themselves, and thereby fulfill the true meaning of the phrase "more guns, less crime".

If someone was to start shooting people at random at your drop zone, would you hope that a good guy with a gun would intercede and stop the bad guy, or would you prefer that the bad guy proceed unhindered to murder your friends, employees and customers?

[tkhayes 348]

The solution would be, finding out why the person wants to come to my drop zone and randomly shoot people, and solve that problem.

The solution, I am certain, would be cheaper for society as a whole, than providing guns, and providing the justice system to deal with those people as criminals after the fact. Not to mention the medical costs, the insurance, the lawsuits, the EMS services, the police, the devastation to families and friends.

But the USA is also in denial of that. "Personal responsibility", even if you are mentally ill and incapable of such a thing.

[jgoose71 0]

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The solution would be, finding out why the person wants to come to my drop zone and randomly shoot people, and solve that problem.

The solution, I am certain, would be cheaper for society as a whole, than providing guns, and providing the justice system to deal with those people as criminals after the fact. Not to mention the medical costs, the insurance, the lawsuits, the EMS services, the police, the devastation to families and friends.

But the USA is also in denial of that. "Personal responsibility", even if you are mentally ill and incapable of such a thing.

That's great. So you are advocating the mental screening of every person in the US?

Simple fact of the matter is, some people come unhinged slowly over time, some people snap in the face of severe trauma and some people spend there life teetering on the edge of sanity. Today they are good, tomorrow, not so much. And they may be harder to diagnose.

You may not like the system set up the way it is, but it's probably as good as it's gonna get. Once you introduce the human factor into the equation all bets are off because we are so damn complicated and unpredictable.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[tkhayes 348]

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You may not like the system set up the way it is, but it's probably as good as it's gonna get

sort of a defeatist attitude I think.

If this is as good as its going to get, that does not say much for the American system as a whole......

and I am advocating better mental health care for everyone in the USA, available to all, through a system OTHER than the prison system, which it pretty much where it lies today. That would be far cheaper than all the stuff I listed, which you appear to have ignored.

Humans are not unpredictable - we are VERY predictable - insurance companies base their rates on it every day. Recorded history demonstrates that we will continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over again - yet we are capable of better - oh wait - you disagreed that we are capable of any better.

TK

[rushmc 23]

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You may not like the system set up the way it is, but it's probably as good as it's gonna get

sort of a defeatist attitude I think.

If this is as good as its going to get, that does not say much for the American system as a whole......

and I am advocating better mental health care for everyone in the USA, available to all, through a system OTHER than the prison system, which it pretty much where it lies today. That would be far cheaper than all the stuff I listed, which you appear to have ignored.

Humans are not unpredictable - we are VERY predictable - insurance companies base their rates on it every day. Recorded history demonstrates that we will continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over again - yet we are capable of better - oh wait - you disagreed that we are capable of any better.

TK

defeatist?

More like reality me thinks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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Humans are not unpredictable - we are VERY predictable - insurance companies base their rates on it every day.
TK

Then why didn't the insurance company know he was going to flip out and shoot people?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

defeatist |diˈfētist|
noun
a person who expects or is excessively ready to accept failure.
adjective
demonstrating expectation or acceptance of failure : we have a duty not to be so defeatist.
DERIVATIVES
defeatism |-tizəm| noun
ORIGIN early 20th cent.: from French défaitiste, from défaite ‘

[tkhayes 348]

I bet the insurance company knows just how many people out there need mental health care.....

[mnealtx 0]

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I bet the insurance company knows just how many people out there need mental health care.....

Amazing, the number of telepaths that post here.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

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The solution would be, finding out why the person wants to come to my drop zone and randomly shoot people, and solve that problem.

The solution, I am certain, would be cheaper for society as a whole, than providing guns, and providing the justice system to deal with those people as criminals after the fact. Not to mention the medical costs, the insurance, the lawsuits, the EMS services, the police, the devastation to families and friends.

Ah, so you can become an investor in kallend's future-crime-prediction machine. Good luck with that.

But until that becomes a reality, wouldn't it be nice to have someone around with a gun to stop the madman from committing more mass murder, once he starts? You conveniently failed to answer that part of my question, and instead chose to talk about fairy tales. Perhaps you also believe in unicorns and magic pixie dust?

And the idea that we should go round up millions of people with mental problems who have yet to exhibit any harmful tendencies towards anyone, and house them in federal gulag mental hospitals... well, methinks your solution is worse than the problem.

[normiss 806]

Makes you wonder if there's a connection between 'telepath' and 'psychopath' ... as in "takes one to know one"!

[futuredivot 0]

In related news, Lamar Moore hasn't shot anyone since Jan 22nd-this is 4 fewer people than he had shot previously. Experts expect that Mr. Moore will continue this trend of not shooting people. Lamar stopped shooting people shortly before dying of return gunfire. Looks like less crime to me.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[tkhayes 348]

I never suggested 'rounding them up' - we already do that. It's called prison.

Yes, in the inevitable case that someone was to come to Skydive City and mow the place down with a machine gun and flame-thrower, yes, in that inevitable fine-line, 1 in a billion case, I would hope that EVERYONE there has a flamethrower and a machine gun of their own.

But that is really not going to happen is it? So instead I chose to NOT have everyone at SKydive City have a flamethrower and a machine gun.

look at the number of gun crimes. Look at the number of times that guns were used to stop a crime. Look at the total number of violent crimes, which is huge,

I would argue that having a gun to 'prevent or lessen crime' is therefore ineffective.

I really appreciate how you put words in my mouth.....is that the only way you can argue or do you actually have data to back up your 'fairy dust'

[tkhayes 348]

and in similar related news, millions of handguns in use every day in the USA did NOTHING to stop crime today, or for any other day for that matter......

[rushmc 23]

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defeatist |diˈfētist|
noun
a person who expects or is excessively ready to accept failure.
adjective
demonstrating expectation or acceptance of failure : we have a duty not to be so defeatist.
DERIVATIVES
defeatism |-tizəm| noun
ORIGIN early 20th cent.: from French défaitiste, from défaite ‘

Thanks
Then my point stands

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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and in similar related news, millions of handguns in use every day in the USA did NOTHING to stop crime today, or for any other day for that matter......

and those same millions did not jump out of their stortage places and shoot anyone

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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and in similar related news, millions of handguns in use every day in the USA did NOTHING to stop crime today, or for any other day for that matter......

and those same millions did not jump out of their stortage places and shoot anyone

if we would put a psychiatrist in those stortage places, then every time a pre-felon/killer goes to get his gun, he can be assessed.

Or we can do it during elections - they show up and vote, and then - while they are there anyway - we can test their mental capacity and put the questionables on a list right away.

They just need the psych exam, then they show their ID, then they.....wait a sec - they can be examined, but they cannot be identified, that would be wrong. So, exams for all, lists will only contain descriptions, but not ID. Things like height, weight, hair and eye color, race, state of dress, ....wait a sec

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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Humans are not unpredictable - we are VERY predictable - insurance companies base their rates on it every day. Recorded history demonstrates that we will continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over again - yet we are capable of better - oh wait - you disagreed that we are capable of any better.

So which is it - we will continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over, or we're capable of better? It's difficult to debate with you when you contradict yourself in every paragraph.

If insurance companies are so good at prediction, why do they fail? How do you explain AIG?