more guns less crime

[turtlespeed 221]

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and in similar related news, millions of handguns in use every day in the USA did NOTHING to stop crime today, or for any other day for that matter......

Except those that did, and just the idea or possibility that a gun was there did.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 221]

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Humans are not unpredictable - we are VERY predictable - insurance companies base their rates on it every day. Recorded history demonstrates that we will continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over again - yet we are capable of better - oh wait - you disagreed that we are capable of any better.

So which is it - we will continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over, or we're capable of better? It's difficult to debate with you when you contradict yourself in every paragraph.

If insurance companies are so good at prediction, why do they fail? How do you explain AIG?

Kallend hadn't finished his "Future Predictor 2000" Yet.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[normiss 806]

Using numbers that way TK...we have plenty of laws on the books against crimes...yet we have over 2 million people in prison in this country (not including local PD and county jails).
You'd like to think legislation works but here we are.

[jgoose71 0]

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Humans are not unpredictable - we are VERY predictable - insurance companies base their rates on it every day. Recorded history demonstrates that we will continue to make the same stupid mistakes over and over again - yet we are capable of better - oh wait - you disagreed that we are capable of any better.

TK

Yes as a mass group we are predictable. You can predict a lot of things and come up with a lot of accurate statistics when you are dealing with groups. And as a whole, we are capable of better.

But that is not what I am talking about here. I'm talking about an individual. There are billions of individuals and each one has his own story and his own path following his own free will. You can predict a group. What we are talking about now for these unspeakable acts of evil is picking the individual out of the group.

Out of a thousand people, there will be one bad apple. Now pick him.

You can only do that if you subject the whole group to mandatory psychological counseling. You really can't do that in a country the size of America. Damn free will. It will get you every time.

Once he has committed a crime though and pops up on the radar, that is a different story. He has to commit a crime first though.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[tkhayes 348]

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You can only do that if you subject the whole group to mandatory psychological counseling. You really can't do that in a country the size of America. Damn free will. It will get you every time.

wrong - you can offer mental health services to everyone, and surprisingly enough, a lot of people will voluntarily come forward and get it, either by themselves, or through family/job/social/whatever pressures.

SOME of those people will be the nut-job that you are referring to, and that will eventually trickle down to the prevention of nut-jobs-shooting-up-schools. at least in part.

AA prevents a lot of drunk drivers. We do not have to 'force' people to go to AA. The service is offered and people go.

Mental health care is also only a small part of the overall changes to society that have to happen; education, overall health care, social safety nets so the 'nut-job could perhaps be less 'futile' in their thoughts.

and as I said earlier, it is cheaper than prison/medical bills/lawsuits/social impact and all the things that come out of the tragedies like Arizona.

Or you can be a defeatist and say that we cannot fix it.

whether you believe you can or you believe you can't, either way you're right.

[kelpdiver 2]

so the question we should all be asking is does TK really believe the stuff he's shoveling out, or is he just having fun with us. I'm definitely in camp #2.

mental health care is readily available. funny thing is that if you take the undetailed concept that keeps getting promoted here about mandatory screening, people will deliberately avoid seeking care to avoid the risks to their job or rights.

I do love your trickle down theory. It works as well as Reagonomics did. And as pointed out to you, it will utterly fail to prevent the exception, which is where these events come from in the first place.

[tkhayes 348]

mental health care is less than available. It is the 'bastard child' part of the health-care system. Not sure where you think mental health care would be available for your average American without them shoveling it out of their own pocket.

And you know EXACTLY what I mean - try not to play dumb please, I think you are smarter than that.

I do believe this stuff, yes.

Mental health care is only 'free' in this country if you are in prison. I have mental health care allowance in my health care plan and i have one of the better plans available in Florida. If I had issues, I would have to shell out THOUSANDS of dollars to get help.

The Arizona shooting in the end will cost tens of millions of dollars.

Now which is cheaper....?

[futuredivot 0]

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Now which is cheaper....?

This with more reasonable concealed carry laws

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[jgoose71 0]

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AA prevents a lot of drunk drivers. We do not have to 'force' people to go to AA. The service is offered and people go.

Yes, if they volunteer to go or are mandated to go. Even though you can look them up in the yellow pages and they are free, we still have drunk drivers. Face it, any example you provide, there will be people that slip through the cracks. That is my point. Unless you mandate everyone get regular mental health tests, some one will slip through.

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The Arizona shooting in the end will cost tens of millions of dollars.

Now which is cheaper....?

Actually the health costs associated with mandatory mental health screening of every man woman and child in America would cost more.

Not to mention the treading on of individual rights.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[tkhayes 348]

ONCE AGAIN - I am not advocating the elimination of all crime - the title is (sarcastically) more guns LESS crime.

ONCE AGAIN - I am not advocating MANDATORY mental health screening.

perhaps you can hear me now.....

[kelpdiver 2]

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Magazines should be limited to ten rounds. Ban assault rifles.

I am in FAVOR of tagging ammunition to help solve gun crimes.

How much safer would you feel if would be mass murderers are limited to 10 rounds per magazine? How long does it take you to change them, or carry a second gun?

And ammo tagging? No viable, not to mention inconclusive even if it works.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The Arizona shooting in the end will cost tens of millions of dollars.

Now which is cheaper....?

Actually the health costs associated with mandatory mental health screening of every man woman and child in America would cost more.

Population of Arizona is 6.5M. Let's pick a cheap $50/hr rate for the shrinks, no drugs. So if the state provided every citizen with one whopping hour of mental health care per year (and there are no administrative costs behind it), it will cost $300M/year.

And exactly what is the math behind the tens of millions in this incident? How many such incidents has Arizona had in the past 20 years?

The kids behind Columbine certainly had access to shrinks. Did they go? If you're not going to make it mandatory, TK, then you're not going to reach the people that need it.

[mnealtx 0]

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I have mental health care allowance in my health care plan and i have one of the better plans available in Florida.

That's the plan you aren't giving to your employees, right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

been down that road before with you mnealtx, and you know the answer already - nice try.

The fact that businesses cannot afford to buy health care for their employees is actually the PROBLEM, not an excuse to avoid the SOLUTION.....

[mnealtx 0]

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The fact that businesses cannot afford to buy health care for their employees is actually the PROBLEM, not an excuse to avoid the SOLUTION.....

What solution is that - getting an Obamacare waiver so you still don't have to shell out the money, or what?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tkhayes 348]

not sure what illusion YOU might be under, but I have never claimed that I (we) would not have to shell out the money.....health care costs money. I have always advocated health care for all, I have always advocated to pay for it through the tax system.

again, nice try but we have been down this road before so your taunts are mostly rhetoric - and I actually think you are smarter than that.

[jgoose71 0]

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ONCE AGAIN - I am not advocating the elimination of all crime - the title is (sarcastically) more guns LESS crime.

ONCE AGAIN - I am not advocating MANDATORY mental health screening.

perhaps you can hear me now.....

Oh I hear you. Tell you what. I can agree that if we provided free mental health care to everyone in the US that it may lessen the crime rate IF you can agree that law abiding and responsible gun owners having a fire arm on them when a crime occurs can lessen the impact of a violent crime.

I think that is something reasonable people can agree on, don't you?

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[tkhayes 348]

BINGO - we have a winner.

But health care of any sort is not free - once again you failed to read even the post prior to your last one.

And I am all for 'law abiding and responsible gun owners' having guns. How do you propose that we we determine who is law abiding and responsible....?

[jgoose71 0]

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BINGO - we have a winner.

But health care of any sort is not free - once again you failed to read even the post prior to your last one.

And I am all for 'law abiding and responsible gun owners' having guns. How do you propose that we we determine who is law abiding and responsible....?

And here is the conundrum that brings me back to the point I made several post ago. Unless you mandate mental health screening for everyone, it ain't gonna happen. It's why I say right now, it's about as good as it's gonna get.

The "Gun Genie" is out of the bottle, Pandora's box has been opened, no going back now. A gun ban is not the answer. You will only disarm law abiding people.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[rushmc 23]

Magazines should be limited to ten rounds. Ban assault rifles.

.

[rushmc 23]

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The fact that businesses cannot afford to buy health care for their employees is actually the PROBLEM, not an excuse to avoid the SOLUTION.....

What solution is that - getting an Obamacare waiver so you still don't have to shell out the money, or what?

On a side note to your post

Waivers this week now cover 6.1 million people. The one I like is the one AARP got for thier emplyees

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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BINGO - we have a winner.

But health care of any sort is not free - once again you failed to read even the post prior to your last one.

And I am all for 'law abiding and responsible gun owners' having guns. How do you propose that we we determine who is law abiding and responsible....?

And here is the conundrum that brings me back to the point I made several post ago. Unless you mandate mental health screening for everyone, it ain't gonna happen. It's why I say right now, it's about as good as it's gonna get.

.

So, to follow this out. How would one reconcile privacy of a person in a case where a gun purchase is in the works? Is that info now available to police and FFL's when one comes to make a purchase? Or does one just get a cerificate of sanity before going to the gun store?
Then, as we know all people do not say sane, do we renew that cerificate from time to time? If that is the case then how would the authorities know the person who no longer has a cerfificate of sanity has any guns? Registration?

Interesting path huh.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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not sure what illusion YOU might be under, but I have never claimed that I (we) would not have to shell out the money.....health care costs money. I have always advocated health care for all, I have always advocated to pay for it through the tax system.

again, nice try but we have been down this road before so your taunts are mostly rhetoric - and I actually think you are smarter than that.

Hey as long as he has got his.... its all good.

[kelpdiver 2]

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not sure what illusion YOU might be under, but I have never claimed that I (we) would not have to shell out the money.....health care costs money. I have always advocated health care for all, I have always advocated to pay for it through the tax system.

?? You had just argued yesterday that this new offer of mental health care would save money, versus the costs of the shootings it would surely (whatever) prevent. Are you abandoning this stance already?

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And I am all for 'law abiding and responsible gun owners' having guns. How do you propose that we we determine who is law abiding and responsible....?

In our country, you are law abiding until proven otherwise.

[tkhayes 348]

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?? You had just argued yesterday that this new offer of mental health care would save money, versus the costs of the shootings it would surely (whatever) prevent. Are you abandoning this stance already?

Who said I was abandoning the stance? Providing mental health care for thousands of dollars is cheaper than the tragedy of a multiple shooting which costs 10's of millions of dollars......ounce of prevention - pound of cure - maybe you've never heard of that - but I doubt it.