US child appeals against being tried for murder as an adult

[kallend 2,032]

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if you won't join the discussion's intent just to be smug that's fine.

What is YOUR definition of adult then? Is it an age? Is it a level of displayed maturity? Is there an age "range" that you'd be comfortable with a mixed answer? Do you bias by gender on the question? or background?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Having established legal definitions of adult and minor and then circumventing them by renaming a child to be an adult is moronic.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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if you won't join the discussion's intent just to be smug that's fine.

What is YOUR definition of adult then? Is it an age? Is it a level of displayed maturity? Is there an age "range" that you'd be comfortable with a mixed answer? Do you bias by gender on the question? or background?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Having established legal definitions of adult and minor and then circumventing them by renaming a child to be an adult is moronic.

Yes, and legally, there are allowances to have trial of a minor "as an adult" in certain cases. So that's another moot point since they don't call the minor an adult, they just treat them as an adult for the specific crime.

I doubt that if any minor commits a horrible crime, that the judicial system will wave a magic wand, the child grows chest hair, and then uncle sam will also let them vote and buy liquor and cigarettes. That would be moronic.

If you read my post up top, I proposed that we forget about "child" and "adult", but base judgments on the severity of the crime and the likelihood of repeat offenses. That doesn't worry about an arbitrary magical age transition. However, if you want to debate the topic with Dav, then you need to acknowledge the argument and debate it. Your input is just inconsequential to his submittal. That sucks, you're smart and yet you continue to dodge the real questions here.

I didn't ask you for the legal dodge. Just your personal opinion. Do you have one that the goverment hasn't assigned to you via law?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,032]

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if you won't join the discussion's intent just to be smug that's fine.

What is YOUR definition of adult then? Is it an age? Is it a level of displayed maturity? Is there an age "range" that you'd be comfortable with a mixed answer? Do you bias by gender on the question? or background?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Having established legal definitions of adult and minor and then circumventing them by renaming a child to be an adult is moronic.

Yes, and legally, there are allowances to have trial of a minor "as an adult" in certain cases. So that's another moot point since they don't call the minor an adult, they just treat them as an adult for the specific crime.

I doubt that if any minor commits a horrible crime, that the judicial system will wave a magic wand, the child grows chest hair, and then uncle sam will also let them vote and buy liquor and cigarettes. That would be moronic.

I didn't ask you for the legal dodge. Just your personal opinion. Do you have one that the goverment hasn't assigned to you via law?

It is my opinion that a child doesn't suddenly become an adult because he/she is accused of a heinous crime, nor because some ambitious prosecutor decides to call him/her an adult.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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It is my opinion that a child doesn't suddenly become an adult because he/she is accused of a heinous crime, nor because some ambitious prosecutor decides to call him/her an adult.

I agreed - but they can charged and treated under the same rules in a court of law for the specific offense only. (some people think this is really justified for the safety of society, not just DA politics)

so what? If you want to argue against that allowance, then state why. Your strawman is zero value added.

My one concession - Treating one in a different category prior to a guilty verdict is silly. But the punishment phase should not be defined by minor status.

When do you think a child becomes an adult? What's your personal criteria?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,032]

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It is my opinion that a child doesn't suddenly become an adult because he/she is accused of a heinous crime, nor because some ambitious prosecutor decides to call him/her an adult.

I agreed - but they can charged and treated under the same rules in a court of law for the specific offense only.

So you're claiming that the child transiently becomes an adult during the commission of one offense? Ridiculous. A child is a child and needs to be treated as such regardless of how heinous.

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(some people think this is really justified for the safety of society, not just DA politics)

Different issue. Rules appropriate to adults are not applicable to children, regardless of how heinous.

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so what? If you want to argue against that allowance, then state why. Your strawman is zero value added.

When do you think a child becomes an adult? What's your personal criteria?

When the mind has developed to adult standards. Neuroscientists tell us this is somewhere in the late teens to early 20s.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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So you're claiming that the child transiently becomes an adult during the commission of one offense? Ridiculous. A child is a child and needs to be treated as such regardless of how heinous

no, like you, this is just the law - no opinion, no claims

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Different issue. Rules appropriate to adults are not applicable to children, regardless of how heinous.

no, it's exactly the issue under discussion as proposed by Davjohns and currently an option under law

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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When the mind has developed to adult standards. Neuroscientists tell us this is somewhere in the late teens to early 20s.

that's a fair answer - and it identifies the gray area under discussion

a 10 year range needs something else then doesn't it? apparently you agree with the allowance offered under law that allows the option to take some kids and try them as adults while trying others of the exact same age as minors - as long as they fit in your window of what - 15 to 25

I'm ok with that as a starting point. thanks

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[virgin-burner 1]

as a friggin' foreigner; can someone please elaborate who this "strawman" is? i may be stupid, but i really dont get it..

thank you!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[rehmwa 2]

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as a friggin' foreigner; can someone please elaborate who this "strawman" is? i may be stupid, but i really dont get it..

thank you!

He's a charactor from the wizard of oz - he was looking for a brain and he ended up being actually quite intelligent and sensitive, but not too good with trigonometry.

hope that helps

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[futuredivot 0]

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Calling a child "adult" does not make a child an adult, any more than calling a dog "cat" makes it a cat.

The entire concept of trying a child as an "adult" is fundamentally flawed.

I hate to toss a little truth into these oh-so-fun discussions but you guys do know that "tried as an adult' is a whole, important word away from being "treated as an adult". It only means a level of punishment, usually the length of incarceration, is opened up that are beyond those available under laws specifically for minors. It allows for a certain flexibility in the prosecution. Historically exercised for particularly heinous crimes in which 6 weeks in juvy and probation are not appropriate.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[rehmwa 2]

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I hate to toss a little truth into these oh-so-fun discussions but you guys do know that "tried as an adult' is a whole, important word away from being "treated as an adult".

Don't bother, he's having fun pretending that the second part is the actual discussion in play. It's fun in a frustrating sort of way.

(my apologies to you though, I have been incorrectly using the two words interchangably though my intent was 'try' not 'treat')

However, in no way will I advocate trying a dog as an adult cat. It's just not reality. Though at times I do treat some friends like dogs.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[futuredivot 0]

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Though at times I do treat some friends like dogs.

As long as, as much as possible, you treat dogs like friends it's ok.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[rehmwa 2]

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Though at times I do treat some friends like dogs.

As long as, as much as possible, you treat dogs like friends it's ok.

I'm a dog person. I grew up with dogs. But, when I have a dog, I treat it like a 'pet' which it is. And certainly not like an offspring (I don't understand city folk and their dogs....)

However, that treatment and what I get in return is often better than with some friends. I suspect that's what you mean.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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What exactly is circular about saying "A child is not an adult"?

Children are NOT adults.

That's all there is to it.

ok, when the question is all about debating the legal definition of children vs the legal definition of adult, your argument isn't circular - it's moronic. Or at least it's moot.

It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. The morons are those who think renaming children as adults makes them adults.

Even a child who commits a particularly heinous crime is NOT an adult.

Excuse me, but the morons are those who think just because a person has not reached age xx they are incapable of premeditation and extreme intentional violence while knowing exactly what they are doing and what the ramifications of those acts are.
Who really gives ashit if the criminal id called a child, an adult, a juvenile, a cabbage, or a potted plant. The person on trial is accused of a crime that demands that persons permanent removal from society if found guilty....period! A big problem with the world today is a bunch of bleeding heart liberals crying, "But he is just a baby" and wanting to let him off with a slap on the wrist. Sorry, Professor, but the person who committed this crime needs to be removed from society regardless of age.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

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When the mind has developed to adult standards. Neuroscientists tell us this is somewhere in the late teens to early 20s.

So do you propose that the accused be subjected to a brain scan to determine if they should be so charged? Is this a binary test with a clear result, or a million shades of gray?

Does this mean the army should be doing the same with recruits?

[kallend 2,032]

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When the mind has developed to adult standards. Neuroscientists tell us this is somewhere in the late teens to early 20s.

So do you propose that the accused be subjected to a brain scan to determine if they should be so charged? Is this a binary test with a clear result, or a million shades of gray?

Does this mean the army should be doing the same with recruits?

Depends whether or not you care about accuracy. Call a dog "a cat" if you don't care.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[virgin-burner 1]

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When the mind has developed to adult standards. Neuroscientists tell us this is somewhere in the late teens to early 20s.

So do you propose that the accused be subjected to a brain scan to determine if they should be so charged? Is this a binary test with a clear result, or a million shades of gray?

Does this mean the army should be doing the same with recruits?

actually, the one about the army i really like; so the US doesnt feel like a 3rd world-country THAT much anymore, since everyone else employs children military; or whatever the correct term is..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Abedy 0]

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I think today's kids are much more violent than in past times. It is probably pushing the courts to try them as adults earlier. I think we need to figure out how we are doing this to our kids and reverse this trend.

It's quite the opposite here in Germany. Not the violence thing, the age issue... We've had some really nasty cases of 20 or 21-year olds who beat people nearly or fully to their deaths or stabbed them etc. All of them f*ckers have their lawyers file for "juvenile offender status" which unfortunately can be granted until the age of 21 (and in some case even 21+) Much more sadly, this is usually granted! Quite often along with mollycuddling babble of youth workers about "being drunk", "had a bad childhood", "comes from a poor background"...
In Germany, you're allowed to vote for the Bundestag at the age of 18. You can get drafted at that age. You can buy hard liquors at that age. You can sign contracts etc. But if you commit murder you are still considered "juvenile". I don't get it.
Not that I want 14-year olds sentenced as "adults", but - as a 21-year old - getting away with a maximum of 10 years in a jail for juveniles (with lotta mollycuddle) and usually getting parole after half the time (for "behaving well") for cold-blooded murder, for beating an old man to death? That's wrong.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[rehmwa 2]

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getting away with a maximum of 10 years in a jail for juveniles (with lotta mollycuddle) and usually getting parole after half the time (for "behaving well") for cold-blooded murder, for beating an old man to death? That's wrong.

when these are the crimes, why does the age matter at all? These are crimes that put society at risk in an unreasonable fashion.

As for parole - One guy goes in at 14 - at 18 (four years later) he's a good candidate (based on observed behavior) to be let out. Another goes in a 34 - at 38 (four years later) he's a good candidate (based on observed behavior) to be let out.

Conversely, both are observed to remain a clear threat of repeating violent crimes and should stay in prison.....

I really don't see how one can justify treating these two people any differently in either scenario. And you can call them dogs and cats if you like as well

I have one consideration that might work.....if they are REALLY young when put on parole but they have to live under the responsibility of an adult who will have to answer for any digressions.....But I'm not sure that's still safe for society to let them walk if they are still evaluated as a further threat. Something to think on.

It's not about the criminal, it's about doing what is right for the rest of society - you know, those people that don't commit those crimes and don't like it happening to them.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,009]

>why does the age matter at all?

Because young children are not responsible for their actions. They gradually gain responsibility (and accountability) throughout their childhood, and finally get all their rights at age 21.

Which is why children are often treated differently when it comes to crimes. They are both denied rights and insulated from responsibility when they are young.

[rehmwa 2]

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>why does the age matter at all?

Because young children are not responsible for their actions. They gradually gain responsibility (and accountability) throughout their childhood, and finally get all their rights at age 21.

Also different than 'rights'

the hypothetical discussion doesn't consider the criminal first - it's about the protection of society first - the criminal somewhere on the priority list around 7th

If the young child is a proven threat to the rest of us (i.e., they are considered very likely to "do it again"), what do you suggest we do to protect the rest of us. And if it's an effective technique, why would you not use it for anyone else regardless of age.

The point is, we aren't "punishing" anyone, we're "protecting" the rest of us.



I suspect the answer lies in that children are more likely to respond to corrective intervention and lesson the chance of repeat. But if that's not an option for a particular child (clear diagnosis of psychopathy, sociopathy), then what?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I suspect the answer lies in that children are more likely to respond to corrective intervention and lesson the chance of repeat. But if that's not an option for a particular child (clear diagnosis of psychopathy, sociopathy), then what?

and, isn't better (more fair) to assess ANY criminal on the basis of recidivism, rather than just ASSUME a certain propensity based on an arbitrary cut off date?



the only no answer here is one of two:

1 - unreasonably emotional basis or;
2 - clear and repeatable statistics under pinning they actually do have a better non-recidivism rate

but if 2 - stats are mass volume assumptions, horrible crimes might still warrant the one at a time analysis


current law agrees with me - when the crime is so terrible, then there are allowances to propose more restrictive punishments (i.e., try as an adult) for the sake of protecting society

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,009]

>If the young child is a proven threat to the rest of us (i.e., they are considered
>very likely to "do it again"), what do you suggest we do to protect the rest of us.

Well, what I would do (if I were the parent) would involve anything from talking to them to grounding them to taking away cellphones, cars etc. In a few (rare) cases it might involve corporal punishment. I imagine you might take a similar approach if it were your child.

>And if it's an effective technique, why would you not use it for anyone else
>regardless of age.

Harder to ground a 35 year old guy than an 11 year old child.

>But if that's not an option for a particular child (clear diagnosis of psychopathy,
>sociopathy), then what?

Mandatory inpatient treatment for their disease. Both gets them off the street and (perhaps) cures them.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>why does the age matter at all?

Because young children are not responsible for their actions. They gradually gain responsibility (and accountability) throughout their childhood, and finally get all their rights at age 21.

Which is why children are often treated differently when it comes to crimes. They are both denied rights and insulated from responsibility when they are young.

You are assuming, incorrectly, that all "children" are the same and that no person is capable of being a responsible person until they reach some predetermined age. While true in most cases it is not unusual at all for a very young person to be mature far past others their age. When I was 12 I was working on the farm doing the same work as my dad. I operated tractors, combines, grain dryers, etc. on my own. I was killing and slaughtering livestock. I was, for all intents and purposes, fully capable of being self sufficient. I also knew that murder was bad and that the penalty would be the loss of my freedom for probably the rest of my life.
Do not fall for the delusion that no "child" can understand or comprehend the results of their actions. Many, many can and do understand as well, or even better than, adults.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.