Border Patrol discussion

[nigel99 568]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meGJ0Wiou3U

This video was posted in general skydiving discussions.

I personally think the guy in the car is being a dick. Why be obstructive? They were polite and asked him to wind down his window which he childishly did only the bare minimum. They asked him to step out of his car and he refused.

What I find extremely funny is that he is probably one of the guys who rants about illegal immigrants at the same time.

PS note at the end he is being disciplined.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[airdvr 210]

I thiink because it's not the first time this has happened to him. He is being singled out for whatever reason (I have my suspicion he's been a dick on previous occasions). I didn't see him do or say anything on this pass that would have alerted the officials but WTF do I know.

This pass was just a pissing contest between the officials and the driver.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[doughboyshred 0]

I don't like the way the bpas handled it, but the guy was being a douche. All he had to do was unroll the window a reasonable amount at the first area and all would have been good. Instead he instigated a confrontation for the cameras.

[VAPA 0]

In response to KevinP from the previous thread:

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"I have read it and watched it, as well as refreshing myself on the 4th Amendment. It's my opinion that they were both contributory. I can see where the BPA abused his position and authority, but I can also see where the "upstanding" driver made it worse than it could have been. I go through BPA CPs weekly. When I approach, I have my window all the way down and my military ID at arms length out of the window in a presentation position. I have never even been slowed down.

Maybe next time, I'll try to play cool with my window down only a couple of inches and see what happens. I suppose I'll have to get them tinted first. I want to duplicate the conditions as closely as I can."

Kevin, if you are military, then you have taken an Oath (before God) to support, defend, and bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States. That being said, this is a Constitutional matter. The questions therefore are, 1) did the driver act legally and 2) did the Border Patrol act legally? The answer is clearly 1) Yes and 2) No.

If you fight on foreign soil as the driver in the video did/does, thanks for your service. But why do you fight? Is it to keep America free? Is it to preserve our Constitutional rights (ie freedom). If so, then if you respond as a military member, you should answer these questions and judge accordingly.

It's interesting that people will pronounce the driver a "douche" and don't mention the agents' actions. Lying. Breaking the law. Violating their oaths to defend the Constitution. And why? Because they really thought this guy wasn't American, but didn't want to actually ask about citizenship or inspect his passport?

BTW, you claim about the windows being tinted (which isn't evident in the video) is interesting since the Border Patrol never mentions tinted windows in the video, and does not mention tinted windows or the ability to see into the car in the three page letter they sent his commander. You seem to be the only person bringing up tinted windows.

At any rate, those who think citizens should just COMPLY with any unlawful request by the government are worse than illegal aliens. They're un-Americans living in the country bought and paid for by the blood of real Americans. Too dumb, or too cowardly to care about freedom beyond a bumper sticker.

If you're interested in the full video (from start to finish), and all the relevant facts and law, and the Border Patrol's three page letter sent to the officer's commander, you can view it all here: http://www.veteransagainstpoliceabuse.org/TotheBorderPatrol.aspx

[VAPA 0]

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IAll he had to do was unroll the window a reasonable amount at the first area and all would have been good..

The Supreme Court has stated these checkpoints are only allowed in order to briefly determine immigration status. That being said, how would rolling the window down all the way have helped the agent determine immigration status when the agent chose not to ask about it? He instead chose to ask about vehicle ownership (which has nothing to do with immigration status).

So how would the driver rolling the window down all the way, have done anything to help the BP determine his citizenship?

[nigel99 568]

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IAll he had to do was unroll the window a reasonable amount at the first area and all would have been good..

The Supreme Court has stated these checkpoints are only allowed in order to briefly determine immigration status. That being said, how would rolling the window down all the way have helped the agent determine immigration status when the agent chose not to ask about it? He instead chose to ask about vehicle ownership (which has nothing to do with immigration status).

So how would the driver rolling the window down all the way, have done anything to help the BP determine his citizenship?

It would have helped set the scene of a compliant and helpful person, rather than someone out to be awkward. Have you ever tried to talk next to a busy road? It is very difficult to hear against the background noise.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[VAPA 0]

The driver was compliant well beyond what he was legally required to comply with.

Even the Border Patrol Agent tells the driver that his window does NOT need to be rolled down all the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZbCCBH7YM4&feature=player_detailpage#t=254s


If there was traffic noise that prevented the Agent from hearing the driver, why does the video show the Agent was able to hear everything said by the driver in the video? The video shows the Agent could hear the driver. If the Agent couldn't hear in primary, he wouldn't have repeated back what the driver told him (proving that he did hear) and he probably would have said "I'm having a hard time hearing you" in the ten seconds of primary. The Agent didn't say this because he heard everything said by the driver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BId1f8WG2s&feature=player_detailpage#t=21s

[VAPA 0]

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IAll he had to do was unroll the window a reasonable amount at the first area and all would have been good..

So how would the driver rolling the window down all the way, have done anything to help the BP determine his citizenship?

It would have helped set the scene of a compliant and helpful person, rather than someone out to be awkward. Have you ever tried to talk next to a busy road? It is very difficult to hear against the background noise.

And do you really think the window being all the way down would have helped the agent determine citizenship when he never asked about it? He asked about car ownership (which the driver answered). Don't you think if the driver were asked, "Are you a U.S. citizen" instead, that he would have answered that question?

[nigel99 568]

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IAll he had to do was unroll the window a reasonable amount at the first area and all would have been good..

So how would the driver rolling the window down all the way, have done anything to help the BP determine his citizenship?

It would have helped set the scene of a compliant and helpful person, rather than someone out to be awkward. Have you ever tried to talk next to a busy road? It is very difficult to hear against the background noise.

And do you really think the window being all the way down would have helped the agent determine citizenship when he never asked about it? He asked about car ownership (which the driver answered). Don't you think if the driver were asked, "Are you a U.S. citizen" instead, that he would have answered that question?

I watched the video and I am sorry but the border patrol guy is polite.

He says "Can you wind down your window sir?"

Muppet "Yes"

BP "Is that as far as it will go?"

Muppet "it can go down more" ---> ATTITUDE PROBLEM is here!

If a guy askes you if it can wind down more why not simply wind it down if you are not looking for confrontation?

BP "Is this your vehicle sir?" is the 3rd question asked.

Honestly what did the guy think when someone asks if your window can wind down more? Did he think that the BP guy doesn't know how far a cars window winds down? Sure if he was asked "are you a US citizen?" he would probably have answered.

I have no problem with authorities giving suspicious or awkward people a closer look - in my opinion that does help to reduce the threat of terrorism and criminal activities.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Niki1 1]

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IAll he had to do was unroll the window a reasonable amount at the first area and all would have been good..

The Supreme Court has stated these checkpoints are only allowed in order to briefly determine immigration status. That being said, how would rolling the window down all the way have helped the agent determine immigration status when the agent chose not to ask about it? He instead chose to ask about vehicle ownership (which has nothing to do with immigration status).

So how would the driver rolling the window down all the way, have done anything to help the BP determine his citizenship?

Is there a part of our Constitution that allows a citizen to be a dickhead without consequences?

VAPA, that was you in the vidio, wasn't it? "Me thinks thou dost protest to much."

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[masterrig 1]

The driver seems 'up' on his knowledge of the law but was a jerk about it. The Border Patrol Agent at the checkpoint, really didn't handle the situation good at all. In a way, the driver was not very cooperative and all events seemed to irritate both 'parties' and resulted in a stand-off situation. All I can think of is, the driver had passed through that checkpoint several times previously and gave the Agents a 'hard time' and so, the Agents, as well as the driver, got 'attitudes'.
I've been through several checkpoints and found that if, you just cooperate, it goes real smoothe.
In this instance, I think, the driver was just being a jerk and set-up the whole situation.

Also, the driver was really looking for something to nail the Border Patrol with... why else would he put video cameras in his car? The whole deal was messed-up.

Chuck

[rushmc 23]

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The driver seems 'up' on his knowledge of the law but was a jerk about it. The Border Patrol Agent at the checkpoint, really didn't handle the situation good at all. In a way, the driver was not very cooperative and all events seemed to irritate both 'parties' and resulted in a stand-off situation. All I can think of is, the driver had passed through that checkpoint several times previously and gave the Agents a 'hard time' and so, the Agents, as well as the driver, got 'attitudes'.
I've been through several checkpoints and found that if, you just cooperate, it goes real smoothe.
In this instance, I think, the driver was just being a jerk and set-up the whole situation.

Also, the driver was really looking for something to nail the Border Patrol with... why else would he put video cameras in his car? The whole deal was messed-up.

Chuck

These video systems are going out the door at a local place of business like I cant believe. Cameras that look like car remotes, pens (that write) with batteries that can record 90 minutes of audio and video. I have a friend who is cross ways with the local police here (long story and not the point). He has one for the next time they stop him. He is not a trouble maker and this has more to do with ex wives and the like but they just like to stop him and he has had enough.
Over sized load excorts are buying the kind that attach to the mirro like this one and will record more than 24 hours and these devices are cheap

My point?

I dont know that he has this just to get it on with the BP

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

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The driver seems 'up' on his knowledge of the law but was a jerk about it. The Border Patrol Agent at the checkpoint, really didn't handle the situation good at all. In a way, the driver was not very cooperative and all events seemed to irritate both 'parties' and resulted in a stand-off situation. All I can think of is, the driver had passed through that checkpoint several times previously and gave the Agents a 'hard time' and so, the Agents, as well as the driver, got 'attitudes'.
I've been through several checkpoints and found that if, you just cooperate, it goes real smoothe.
In this instance, I think, the driver was just being a jerk and set-up the whole situation.

Also, the driver was really looking for something to nail the Border Patrol with... why else would he put video cameras in his car? The whole deal was messed-up.

Chuck

These video systems are going out the door at a local place of business like I cant believe. Cameras that look like car remotes, pens (that write) with batteries that can record 90 minutes of audio and video. I have a friend who is cross ways with the local police here (long story and not the point). He has one for the next time they stop him. He is not a trouble maker and this has more to do with ex wives and the like but they just like to stop him and he has had enough.
Over sized load excorts are buying the kind that attach to the mirro like this one and will record more than 24 hours and these devices are cheap

My point?

I dont know that he has this just to get it on with the BP

I really think, the guy is mad because he has to pass through a check-point. Now, he's got an "I'll get you, you son of a bitch!" attitude. Had he just rolled down his window... all the way, he wouldn't have put the Border Patrol Agent 'on guard' and would have had to have answered a couple quick questions and been on his way. I get the impression, the guy is an arrogant, self-centered jerk who 'needs' his fanny spanked. I agree, he's out to get the Border Patrol for hindering his life-style.


Chuck

[rushmc 23]

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The driver seems 'up' on his knowledge of the law but was a jerk about it. The Border Patrol Agent at the checkpoint, really didn't handle the situation good at all. In a way, the driver was not very cooperative and all events seemed to irritate both 'parties' and resulted in a stand-off situation. All I can think of is, the driver had passed through that checkpoint several times previously and gave the Agents a 'hard time' and so, the Agents, as well as the driver, got 'attitudes'.
I've been through several checkpoints and found that if, you just cooperate, it goes real smoothe.
In this instance, I think, the driver was just being a jerk and set-up the whole situation.

Also, the driver was really looking for something to nail the Border Patrol with... why else would he put video cameras in his car? The whole deal was messed-up.

Chuck

These video systems are going out the door at a local place of business like I cant believe. Cameras that look like car remotes, pens (that write) with batteries that can record 90 minutes of audio and video. I have a friend who is cross ways with the local police here (long story and not the point). He has one for the next time they stop him. He is not a trouble maker and this has more to do with ex wives and the like but they just like to stop him and he has had enough.
Over sized load excorts are buying the kind that attach to the mirro like this one and will record more than 24 hours and these devices are cheap

My point?

I dont know that he has this just to get it on with the BP

I really think, the guy is mad because he has to pass through a check-point. Now, he's got an "I'll get you, you son of a bitch!" attitude. Had he just rolled down his window... all the way, he wouldn't have put the Border Patrol Agent 'on guard' and would have had to have answered a couple quick questions and been on his way. I get the impression, the guy is an arrogant, self-centered jerk who 'needs' his fanny spanked. I agree, he's out to get the Border Patrol for hindering his life-style.


Chuck

Maybe, but the BP lied more than once when they said (as an initial question) they asked if he was a US citizen

I really dont know
and I dont know why he has the recorder.
My post was to just let you know these things are out there all over the place for varing reasons. And they cost very little

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[VAPA 0]

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It would have helped set the scene of a compliant and helpful person, rather than someone out to be awkward. Have you ever tried to talk next to a busy road? It is very difficult to hear against the background noise.

Well, since you're apparently a Brit then we can agree to disagree on civil liberty and the rights of American citizens since we're not talking about your rights against the Crown. We kicked out the tyrant a few hundred years ago, and today we've got a few un-American cowards to deal with, but such is the conflict between freedom and tyranny.

Some think the government should be able to push around citizens for any reason they want (being a "dickhead", looking at an agent funny, or whatever bogus reason they come up with). They are apologists for tyranny, have little understanding of American history, and live off the fleeting freedom that was earned by greater people than themselves, like a spoiled rich kid who will later bankrupt the family business because he never developed the character required to do great things. But this is just philosophy.

The fact is, the Agents in this video broke the law. The driver broke no laws. When he wins his federal lawsuit and their tax money goes to him and his lawyers, some will still talk the same baloney, still cheerlead for the erosion of their right to exist and not be screwed with by armed, lying, intrusive government.

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stuart Mill

[masterrig 1]

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The driver seems 'up' on his knowledge of the law but was a jerk about it. The Border Patrol Agent at the checkpoint, really didn't handle the situation good at all. In a way, the driver was not very cooperative and all events seemed to irritate both 'parties' and resulted in a stand-off situation. All I can think of is, the driver had passed through that checkpoint several times previously and gave the Agents a 'hard time' and so, the Agents, as well as the driver, got 'attitudes'.
I've been through several checkpoints and found that if, you just cooperate, it goes real smoothe.
In this instance, I think, the driver was just being a jerk and set-up the whole situation.

Also, the driver was really looking for something to nail the Border Patrol with... why else would he put video cameras in his car? The whole deal was messed-up.

Chuck

These video systems are going out the door at a local place of business like I cant believe. Cameras that look like car remotes, pens (that write) with batteries that can record 90 minutes of audio and video. I have a friend who is cross ways with the local police here (long story and not the point). He has one for the next time they stop him. He is not a trouble maker and this has more to do with ex wives and the like but they just like to stop him and he has had enough.
Over sized load excorts are buying the kind that attach to the mirro like this one and will record more than 24 hours and these devices are cheap

My point?

I dont know that he has this just to get it on with the BP

I really think, the guy is mad because he has to pass through a check-point. Now, he's got an "I'll get you, you son of a bitch!" attitude. Had he just rolled down his window... all the way, he wouldn't have put the Border Patrol Agent 'on guard' and would have had to have answered a couple quick questions and been on his way. I get the impression, the guy is an arrogant, self-centered jerk who 'needs' his fanny spanked. I agree, he's out to get the Border Patrol for hindering his life-style.


Chuck

Maybe, but the BP lied more than once when they said (as an initial question) they asked if he was a US citizen

I really dont know
and I dont know why he has the recorder.
My post was to just let you know these things are out there all over the place for varing reasons. And they cost very little

My wife did a search of 'what's out there' in regards to the type devices you mentioned. What is 'out there' would make James Bond look like ahare-cropper! You're right too, about that stuff being cheap!


Chuck

[rushmc 23]

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The driver seems 'up' on his knowledge of the law but was a jerk about it. The Border Patrol Agent at the checkpoint, really didn't handle the situation good at all. In a way, the driver was not very cooperative and all events seemed to irritate both 'parties' and resulted in a stand-off situation. All I can think of is, the driver had passed through that checkpoint several times previously and gave the Agents a 'hard time' and so, the Agents, as well as the driver, got 'attitudes'.
I've been through several checkpoints and found that if, you just cooperate, it goes real smoothe.
In this instance, I think, the driver was just being a jerk and set-up the whole situation.

Also, the driver was really looking for something to nail the Border Patrol with... why else would he put video cameras in his car? The whole deal was messed-up.

Chuck

These video systems are going out the door at a local place of business like I cant believe. Cameras that look like car remotes, pens (that write) with batteries that can record 90 minutes of audio and video. I have a friend who is cross ways with the local police here (long story and not the point). He has one for the next time they stop him. He is not a trouble maker and this has more to do with ex wives and the like but they just like to stop him and he has had enough.
Over sized load excorts are buying the kind that attach to the mirro like this one and will record more than 24 hours and these devices are cheap

My point?

I dont know that he has this just to get it on with the BP

I really think, the guy is mad because he has to pass through a check-point. Now, he's got an "I'll get you, you son of a bitch!" attitude. Had he just rolled down his window... all the way, he wouldn't have put the Border Patrol Agent 'on guard' and would have had to have answered a couple quick questions and been on his way. I get the impression, the guy is an arrogant, self-centered jerk who 'needs' his fanny spanked. I agree, he's out to get the Border Patrol for hindering his life-style.


Chuck

Maybe, but the BP lied more than once when they said (as an initial question) they asked if he was a US citizen

I really dont know
and I dont know why he has the recorder.
My post was to just let you know these things are out there all over the place for varing reasons. And they cost very little

My wife did a search of 'what's out there' in regards to the type devices you mentioned. What is 'out there' would make James Bond look like ahare-cropper! You're right too, about that stuff being cheap!


Chuck

I have to say I was surprised too.

Heck, a wireless home video security system linked to an internet computer lets you look at you home from anywhere for under $300.

4 cameras and 72 hour looped recordings

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[masterrig 1]

Seems to me, we as a nation, have gotten quite paranoid and as usual, there's someone out there who is going to profit from it.


Chuck

[michalm21 2]

The driver was a douche. He got what was coming to him.

[VAPA 0]

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The driver was a douche. He got what was coming to him.

Feel free not to back your "he deserved it" up with any kind of reasoning or facts. Much more persuasive that way.

[masterrig 1]

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It would have helped set the scene of a compliant and helpful person, rather than someone out to be awkward. Have you ever tried to talk next to a busy road? It is very difficult to hear against the background noise.

Well, since you're apparently a Brit then we can agree to disagree on civil liberty and the rights of American citizens since we're not talking about your rights against the Crown. We kicked out the tyrant a few hundred years ago, and today we've got a few un-American cowards to deal with, but such is the conflict between freedom and tyranny.

Some think the government should be able to push around citizens for any reason they want (being a "dickhead", looking at an agent funny, or whatever bogus reason they come up with). They are apologists for tyranny, have little understanding of American history, and live off the fleeting freedom that was earned by greater people than themselves, like a spoiled rich kid who will later bankrupt the family business because he never developed the character required to do great things. But this is just philosophy.

The fact is, the Agents in this video broke the law. The driver broke no laws. When he wins his federal lawsuit and their tax money goes to him and his lawyers, some will still talk the same baloney, still cheerlead for the erosion of their right to exist and not be screwed with by armed, lying, intrusive government.

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

- John Stuart Mill

The guy in the car acted like a jerk, right from the start. Had he approached the incident like someone with some sense, he would've saved himself a big headache. As for getting what he deserved... yes! It's like I said earlier... if he wasn't such a self-centered jerk, he've been all-right. Too often, people bring things on themselves.


Chuck

[VAPA 0]

Got ya. So in your view it's ok for the government to harass, lie to, and punish citizens if in their view the citizen is a jerk, a douche, or a poo poo head regardless of whether said jerk has broken the law.

And I guess in your view, you give a pass to the Agents who lie several times to the driver, right. Not jerks? Right on. Very enlightened.

Well, just enjoy yourself and others will defend your freedoms for you so you don't have to get your hands dirty.

[masterrig 1]

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Got ya. So in your view it's ok for the government to harass, lie to, and punish citizens if in their view the citizen is a jerk, a douche, or a poo poo head regardless of whether said jerk has broken the law.

And I guess in your view, you give a pass to the Agents who lie several times to the driver, right. Not jerks? Right on. Very enlightened.

Well, just enjoy yourself and others will defend your freedoms for you so you don't have to get your hands dirty.

I never said the Agents handled it right! They really didn't BUT the driver of the car approached the incident WRONG. Had he rolled his window all the way down, answered a couple questions, he'd have been on his way with no problem. The driver set it up and the Agents let that asshole get to them. I do believe, this is a rather 'isolated' incident. The Agents I've dealt with have handled things more professionally. The Agent here, might have been a rookie. Your defense of this guy is a bit mis-guided... I think. Plain and simple... the driver was acting like a jerk and has had previous encounters similar to this. Got NO sympathy for him.


Chuck

[airdvr 210]

It's plainly obvious to me that the driver has had this kind of issue at this crossing before. Hence the camera and being well versed in his rights. He comes off as a bit of a douche only because he is questioning authority. There's no good way to do that.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[VAPA 0]

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Got ya. So in your view it's ok for the government to harass, lie to, and punish citizens if in their view the citizen is a jerk, a douche, or a poo poo head regardless of whether said jerk has broken the law.

And I guess in your view, you give a pass to the Agents who lie several times to the driver, right. Not jerks? Right on. Very enlightened.

Well, just enjoy yourself and others will defend your freedoms for you so you don't have to get your hands dirty.

I never said the Agents handled it right! They really didn't BUT the driver of the car approached the incident WRONG. Had he rolled his window all the way down, answered a couple questions, he'd have been on his way with no problem. The driver set it up and the Agents let that asshole get to them. I do believe, this is a rather 'isolated' incident. The Agents I've dealt with have handled things more professionally. The Agent here, might have been a rookie. Your defense of this guy is a bit mis-guided... I think. Plain and simple... the driver was acting like a jerk and has had previous encounters similar to this. Got NO sympathy for him.


Chuck

I see. You think both are wrong, but you slam the driver (who may have been wrong in your eyes, but acted legally whether you like it or not) instead of the agents who were LEGALLY wrong (violating the Constitution as specifically defined by the Supreme Court in its case law concerning these checkpoints). You're just outraged at the color of the shirt worn by the driver (oh, it's so tacky) yet have practically nothing to say about armed agents violating the Constitution!

Priorities much?

Yeah no sympathy with him. He's had previous encounters and was looking for it. That's why he set up cameras. He was setting them up. Like a DZ owner who gets her student rigs robbed by some meth-heds and then decides to set up a camera to catch the illegal act. She was setting them up!

Like Martin Luther King, the dude did that shit all the time (standing up for his rights as an American in the face of an abusive and legally wrong government), no sympathy for him, either.