Wikileaks nomination for Nobel....

[turtlespeed 221]

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Could you now clarify please?

Nope. Irrelevant.

Then what do you base your argument on?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[popsjumper 2]

Some people just get stuck in a rut and can't find their way out.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Could you now clarify please?

Nope. Irrelevant.

Then what do you base your argument on?

It seems there are three people on this thread whose only argument is that everything the government says and does should be public information. No secrets...NONE.
And then they accuse the rest of us of being radical extremists because we say the government should be allowed to keep some things under wraps.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Some people just get stuck in a rut and can't find their way out.

It would be easier to get out of that rut if you would stop digging it deeper.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[popsjumper 2]

...and there are some who make asinine assumptions and then base their whining on them. Fun to watch the steam coming out of their collar.


Same old broken record rut...keep trying.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Southern_Man 0]

Her is an interesting blog post I ran across while googling about whether Assange could be charged withe receiving stolen property:

http://cyb3rcrim3.blogspot.com/2010/12/wikileaks-and-receiving-stolen-property.html

Her conclusion is that looks like that is technically possible but it would be a relatively novel use of the law and it may be difficult to prove all the elements of the crime.

It continues to raise questions about possible defenses under the first amendment for me. Also some troubling questions about extraterritoriality.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[champu 1]

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It seems there are three people on this thread whose only argument is that...

I think just about everyone in this thread is being ridiculous, yourself included whether you realize it or not. This situation is not "18-pages-complicated"

[normiss 806]

Everything is '18 pages complicated' when lawyers get involved.
Add international law to that??!!!!

[popsjumper 2]

Now I know where some got the idea of stolen property and espionage....they've been listening to talk radio.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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...and there are some who make asinine assumptions and then base their whining on them. Fun to watch the steam coming out of their collar.


Same old broken record rut...keep trying.

You were asked a direct question about your opinion.
You have refused to answer that question.
Assumptions are all we have to go on.
Based on your posts here the assumptions made are logical.
You are free to correct those assumptions. In fact, it would be most welcome.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[turtlespeed 221]

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Now I know where some got the idea of stolen property and espionage....they've been listening to talk radio.

not true. I have always considered assange and who ever helped him guilty of espionage. That was before we even knew who he was.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[shropshire 0]

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[Yeah, you're right that does read a bit strange, don't it?

I got it Shroppy....he who cares right up to the point of flying fuck but no more.

Caring a flying fuck is waaaaaaaay down the caring scale.

It's Brit thing, right?

Exactly

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[tkhayes 348]

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Now....why don't you tell us what documents should be made public and which ones shouldn't? You do have an opinion on that, right?

You consistently ask this question of everyone, including me, as if this is some sort of defense of your argument.

Surely you can do better than that.

What we think should or should not be classified neither makes nor breaks the argument of open or transparent government.

So regardless of the answer to that question for any specific person - your question is simply an attempt (a poor one) to divert the attention of the actual point of this thread to something that you have conjured up that is only apparent and relevent to you.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Now....why don't you tell us what documents should be made public and which ones shouldn't? You do have an opinion on that, right?

You consistently ask this question of everyone, including me, as if this is some sort of defense of your argument.

Surely you can do better than that.

What we think should or should not be classified neither makes nor breaks the argument of open or transparent government.

So regardless of the answer to that question for any specific person - your question is simply an attempt (a poor one) to divert the attention of the actual point of this thread to something that you have conjured up that is only apparent and relevent to you.

Trapped, ain't ye?
You have two ways to answer.
1: You admit that there are some things the government should be allowed to keep secret. However, that would put you at odds in defending Assange for releasing everything he was given.
2: You admit you feel the government should not have any secrets at all, but that would reveal a hypocracy in saying I have extreme views because i want some things kept secret.
Need a longer handled shovel? That hole you're digging is getting pretty darn deep.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Southern_Man 0]

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not true. I have always considered assange and who ever helped him guilty of espionage. That was before we even knew who he was.

Everything i've read indicates that Assange has to have actively participated in planning w/ Manning to get the classified documents for an espionage charge to have any chance of sticking. Maybe Assange did so but I've seen and heard nothing that actually indicates this.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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not true. I have always considered assange and who ever helped him guilty of espionage. That was before we even knew who he was.

Everything i've read indicates that Assange has to have actively participated in planning w/ Manning to get the classified documents for an espionage charge to have any chance of sticking. Maybe Assange did so but I've seen and heard nothing that actually indicates this.

That doesn't mean there should not be an investigation.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[turtlespeed 221]

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Now....why don't you tell us what documents should be made public and which ones shouldn't? You do have an opinion on that, right?

You consistently ask this question of everyone, including me, as if this is some sort of defense of your argument.

Surely you can do better than that.

What we think should or should not be classified neither makes nor breaks the argument of open or transparent government.

So regardless of the answer to that question for any specific person - your question is simply an attempt (a poor one) to divert the attention of the actual point of this thread to something that you have conjured up that is only apparent and relevent to you.

Trapped, ain't ye?
You have two ways to answer.
1: You admit that there are some things the government should be allowed to keep secret. However, that would put you at odds in defending Assange for releasing everything he was given.
2: You admit you feel the government should not have any secrets at all, but that would reveal a hypocracy in saying I have extreme views because i want some things kept secret.
Need a longer handled shovel? That hole you're digging is getting pretty darn deep.

You don't get it.

They want 100% transparency. They want access to all the government's paperwork from the lowliest office memo to the battle plans for any operations anywhere to the launch codes for the nations weapon systems. 100% transparency.

That is where they draw the line between secret and not secret . . . there is none/should not bae any, in their mind.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kelpdiver 2]

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Trapped, ain't ye?
You have two ways to answer.
1: You admit that there are some things the government should be allowed to keep secret. However, that would put you at odds in defending Assange for releasing everything he was given.
2: You admit you feel the government should not have any secrets at all, but that would reveal a hypocracy in saying I have extreme views because i want some things kept secret.
Need a longer handled shovel? That hole you're digging is getting pretty darn deep.

You haven't answer the question yourself.

You've made some vague statement that corrupt governments don't retain their right to keep secrets. But you won't actually describe where it's applicable, with a lot of dancing re: the Pentagon Papers.

The fair assessment is that you don't really believe anything should be revealed, or you want the foxes to determine what gets out of the henhouse.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Trapped, ain't ye?
You have two ways to answer.
1: You admit that there are some things the government should be allowed to keep secret. However, that would put you at odds in defending Assange for releasing everything he was given.
2: You admit you feel the government should not have any secrets at all, but that would reveal a hypocracy in saying I have extreme views because i want some things kept secret.
Need a longer handled shovel? That hole you're digging is getting pretty darn deep.

You haven't answer the question yourself.

You've made some vague statement that corrupt governments don't retain their right to keep secrets. But you won't actually describe where it's applicable, with a lot of dancing re: the Pentagon Papers.

The fair assessment is that you don't really believe anything should be revealed, or you want the foxes to determine what gets out of the henhouse.

I have already stated more than once that I believe any documents or information concerning illegal activities should not be able to be kept secret. I have also stated that i believe the government should be able to keep documnets and information concerning legal and ethical dealings secret if it best serves the interest of the country.
Hard to get more specific than that.
If you paid attention you would have known that.

Now, are you going to state your opinion on the matter or are you going to keep playing your childish "I know you are but what am I" games?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Now, are you going to state your opinion on the matter or are you going to keep playing your childish "I know you are but what am I" games?

I stated my opinion rather clearly...pay better attention (to the Constitution too).

[nigel99 507]

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Trapped, ain't ye?
You have two ways to answer.
1: You admit that there are some things the government should be allowed to keep secret. However, that would put you at odds in defending Assange for releasing everything he was given.
2: You admit you feel the government should not have any secrets at all, but that would reveal a hypocracy in saying I have extreme views because i want some things kept secret.
Need a longer handled shovel? That hole you're digging is getting pretty darn deep.

You haven't answer the question yourself.

You've made some vague statement that corrupt governments don't retain their right to keep secrets. But you won't actually describe where it's applicable, with a lot of dancing re: the Pentagon Papers.

The fair assessment is that you don't really believe anything should be revealed, or you want the foxes to determine what gets out of the henhouse.

I have already stated more than once that I believe any documents or information concerning illegal activities should not be able to be kept secret. I have also stated that i believe the government should be able to keep documnets and information concerning legal and ethical dealings secret if it best serves the interest of the country.
Hard to get more specific than that.
If you paid attention you would have known that.

Now, are you going to state your opinion on the matter or are you going to keep playing your childish "I know you are but what am I" games?

By your definition alot of the Wikileaks documents are legitimate leaks. Spying by diplomats is illegal under international law, much of what has been released directly relates to spying.

By the way legal and ethical are two different things. Alot of legal activity is unethical. Again some of what has been leaked shows very little ethics on the part of the US government but it is probably legal.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[tkhayes 348]

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1: You admit that there are some things the government should be allowed to keep secret. However, that would put you at odds in defending Assange for releasing everything he was given.

Where did I say that?

I said TRANSPARENCY. you say SECRETS. I say TRANSPARENCY.

you're the one that does not get it.

Assange is my hero. Dr MLK is my hero. Abe Lincoln is my hero. These are people who stood up for what is right despite the best efforts of people like you who "stand up for whatever works for you at this time"

I wrote my representatives and told them to back off the pursuit of Assange. When was the last time you wrote your representatives to ask them to 'better define' what should or should not be a secret? - the question that you appear to be so concerned about....?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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By your definition alot of the Wikileaks documents are legitimate leaks. Spying by diplomats is illegal under international law, much of what has been released directly relates to spying.

By the way legal and ethical are two different things. Alot of legal activity is unethical. Again some of what has been leaked shows very little ethics on the part of the US government but it is probably legal.

I have maintained from the start that I have no objection to the leaked documents that reveal illegal activity. I stated that several times and even specifically included the documents leaked by Assange.
I realize legal and ethical are two different things, that is why i specified both conditions.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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1: You admit that there are some things the government should be allowed to keep secret. However, that would put you at odds in defending Assange for releasing everything he was given.

Where did I say that?

I said TRANSPARENCY. you say SECRETS. I say TRANSPARENCY.

you're the one that does not get it.

Assange is my hero. Dr MLK is my hero. Abe Lincoln is my hero. These are people who stood up for what is right despite the best efforts of people like you who "stand up for whatever works for you at this time"

I wrote my representatives and told them to back off the pursuit of Assange. When was the last time you wrote your representatives to ask them to 'better define' what should or should not be a secret? - the question that you appear to be so concerned about....?

I understand EXACTLY what you are saying. But you still haven't answered the question "Where would you draw the line?"
It's shamefull that you put MLK in the same group as Assange. MLK had balls. He stood in front of his detractors and challenged them to take him down. Assange runs like the scared little rabbit.
No, MLK and Assange are not alike. Not even a little. It is disgraceful that you even think they are.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[popsjumper 2]

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You were asked a direct question about your opinion.
You have refused to answer that question.

You get that part. So how many more times are you going to ask?

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Assumptions are all we have to go on.

Then have fun with it!

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Based on your posts here the assumptions made are logical.

Assumptions are never logical when you have no basis on which to apply them. Your error is thinking they are correct.

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You are free to correct those assumptions. In fact, it would be most welcome.

No desire to correct. I'm enjoying the errors you're generating.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239