Wikileaks nomination for Nobel....

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I did. Your argument is inconsistent.

OK, Mike. You're being intentionally obtuse on this.
I'll say it one last time and I'm done with it.
"Read it one more time, eh?"

Re-read post #740

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mnealtx 0]

Intentionally obtuse? No.

>Re-read post 740.

How about you just explain what you meant, in light of post 731.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Bullshit. I gave you a job. I pay you for your services. What you do with the money is up to you.

Yes, and part of my compensation can either be:

1. Lower salary and benefits like HC and retirement.
2. Higher salary and no benefits.

HC is used as a part of a total compensation package. So is use of a private jet, free sporting event tickets, company car...Etc.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

>No, it is COMPENSATION EARNED through participation in the armed forces.

I agree! They are entitled to their socialist health care.

No, you still do not understand the concept of an EARNED compensation.

It is not socialist if it was part of a compensation package agreed to before hand. It is not socialist if you can avoid participation.

Social Security is socialist since I have to participate. I did not have to join the service.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

And for every Canadian you can find that went to the US for medical help, I can find an American that went to some other country because they could not afford it here.

One of your *leadership* left Canada. Find an example of that in the US.

Quote

Your solution to today's Health Care issues in the USA would be..........?

Not blindly following the path of England Canada and France that the HC is running in the red.

[billvon 3,008]

>It is not socialist if it was part of a compensation package

It is socialist if it is produced and managed by the government. Veteran's health care is run by the government. Therefore it is a socialist program,

You don't want to use the actual definition of the world because the right wing has tried to associate "socialism" and "entitlement spending" with democrats and make them seem as evil as possible. And while that works for FOX News, it doesn't really work in the real world; words do not change their meanings just because their real definitions are politically inconvenient.

Veteran's healthcare is a socialist program. So are police forces. So are 99% of public highways. So is NASA and the CDC. So is medicare and medicaid.

It is also an entitlement program, meaning that it access to it is guaranteed by legislation. So is welfare. So are farm commodity price supports and food stamps.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Veteran's healthcare is a socialist program. So are police forces. So are 99% of public highways. So is NASA and the CDC. So is medicare and medicaid.

It is also an entitlement program, meaning that it access to it is guaranteed by legislation. So is welfare. So are farm commodity price supports and food stamps.

This is a literalist approach, and just a tad dishonest.

You left out government employee pension/retirement plans. Those would be just as socialist as medical care for shot up soldiers. But unlike all the others you listed, these are provided for government employees, not to the entire citizenry.

VA costs are a hidden cost of our recent wars. It would be good to publicize them.

[pbwing 0]

Quote

Quote

And for every Canadian you can find that went to the US for medical help, I can find an American that went to some other country because they could not afford it here.

One of your *leadership* left Canada. Find an example of that in the US.

Danny Williams decision to travel to Cedars-Sinai had nothing to do with socialized medicine in Canada. It was for a procedure that is in clinical trials in North America.

He could have easily had the valve replaced in St. John's (where he lived at the time), but he was a good candidate for the trial so he decided to proceed with the percutaneous aortic valve replacement.

Again, this had nothing to do with waiting lists, inferior care or anything like that.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

It is socialist if it is produced and managed by the government. Veteran's health care is run by the government. Therefore it is a socialist program,

No, but you did at least try. It is compensation earned by working FOR the Govt... Of course the employer is responsible and would run it. So it is only logical that the Govt would run a compensation program for its employees

Quote

Veteran's healthcare is a socialist program. So are police forces. So are 99% of public highways. So is NASA and the CDC. So is medicare and medicaid.

No, but the military, the police and NASA are socialist programs. So I guess you think that the compensation the police get when they retire is socialist?

Quote

It is also an entitlement program

No, it is compensation for work performed.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Danny Williams decision to travel to Cedars-Sinai had nothing to do with socialized medicine in Canada. It was for a procedure that is in clinical trials in North America.

Williams later defended his choice saying: "I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics"

Quote

Again, this had nothing to do with waiting lists, inferior care or anything like that.

He could have had the procedure done at home, he made a choice to travel to a place that he thought would be better.

"a very specialized piece of surgery somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week." -- DW

It is exactly a comment on HC in Canada. He made a choice to go somewhere else and had the money to be able to do it.... Not everyone has the money to make that choice.

[tkhayes 348]

http://www.medretreat.com/

and this is a comment on HC in the USA,

Neither system is perfect.

The US system IS actually the best, but only if you can afford it. Since a large chunk of the country cannot afford, it, it is not the best system. Of course, that is a whole different argument again, which is futile to pursue with people that cannot see the forest for the trees.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

http://www.medretreat.com/

and this is a comment on HC in the USA,

Neither system is perfect.

The US system IS actually the best, but only if you can afford it. Since a large chunk of the country cannot afford, it, it is not the best system. Of course, that is a whole different argument again, which is futile to pursue with people that cannot see the forest for the trees.

I really do wish .. that all those here who BELIEVE that their healthcare is so great.. and no changes needed to be made.... have EXACTLY the same experiences I have had with their insuance providers.


( that is kinda one of those Chinese curse things of hoping all these numbnuts get to live in VERY interesting times.)

[tkhayes 348]

exactly - my insurance claim when I broke my neck was a nightmare I would wish on no one.

I had insurance. Within 5 days of my accident, the bills began to roll in. I assumed that the vendors would bill my insurance company. No, they mostly bill me directly. I send them to my insurance company (Aetna I think - and a good plan too).

The insurance company denies the claim. I send a letter asking why they denied the claim. They sent back a letter stating "We have reviewed your claim and decided it is not valid/warranted/whatever.

I sent back a second letter demanding to know why the claim is not being paid and asking them to show in my policy where it says this is not covered. Then they pay the bill.

Each of these correspondences takes 30-60 days. So a single bill could take 8 months to clear. By then, my credit report is already destroyed.

The pile of paper was so thick I could not believe it. Nothing in plain english. claim numbers, invoice numbers, reference numbers, and 'generic-named' companies from all over the country.

It got so bad, I developed my own form letters to manage it. Letter 1 with blanks to fill in the claim and invoice numbers, and then Letter 2 which was usually honored and paid.

Yes, it is a piece of cake this HC system we have. And that was 10 years ago. It has gotten SO MUCH BETTER today i am sure.

Now, how is it that someone with cancer who is bed-ridden and perhaps has no family r friends to manage this is supposed to deal with all that?

yep, this system is near perfect.......sheesh!

[billvon 3,008]

>So I guess you think that the compensation the police get when they
>retire is socialist?

If it is paid for and administered by the government, yes, it is. That's the definition of the word.

>>It is also an entitlement program

>No, it is compensation for work performed.

Many socialist programs compensate workers. You have admitted that NASA is a socialist program, and yet they still compensate people who work for them. Does that negate their status as a socialist program?

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

and this is a comment on HC in the USA,

Sure the difference is I am not trying to mandate to you.

Quote

Of course, that is a whole different argument again, which is futile to pursue with people that cannot see the forest for the trees.

And you would rather follow a path that has been shown to ALSO not work. So instead of trying to see the trees, you want to cut them all down to improve your view of the forest.

[Amazon 7]

Ah.. the answer to that... that the insurance companies expect...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U7rOUSvYM8&playnext=1&list=PLA2F821B0DE1511B9

[normiss 806]

Can we split this thread?
I'm confused by the distraction of a Wikileaks title over a HC debate.

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

And you would rather follow a path that has been shown to ALSO not work. So instead of trying to see the trees, you want to cut them all down to improve your view of the forest.

A system that serves only a portion and provides GREAT healthcare to that portion at a very high cost.

Or a system that provides good healthcare to all at a lower cost.

I accept the latter offer.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

And you would rather follow a path that has been shown to ALSO not work. So instead of trying to see the trees, you want to cut them all down to improve your view of the forest.

A system that serves only a portion and provides GREAT healthcare to that portion at a very high cost.

Or a system that provides good healthcare to all at a lower cost.

I accept the latter offer.

That is COMPLETELY unacceptable.. how do you expect all those millionaires out there in the health care industry to achieve billionaire status

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

A system that serves only a portion and provides GREAT healthcare to that portion at a very high cost.

Or a system that provides good healthcare to all at a lower cost.

I accept the latter offer.

Great, now find a way to do it without destroying the quality of care, or running the deficit so high we go under.

Unlike you, I have access to US controlled HC... I can tell you I pay for my own private HC.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Can we split this thread?
I'm confused by the distraction of a Wikileaks title over a HC debate.

770 some odd posts...the greenies let it too far out of hand. Such is life.

I'd vote for wiping out the entire stupid thread and starting over again with a closer eye on keeping it...on topic.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 3,008]

>I'd vote for wiping out the entire stupid thread . . .

Because we wouldn't want any stupid, wandering, pointless threads here?

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

Can we split this thread?
I'm confused by the distraction of a Wikileaks title over a HC debate.

OK, back on track then - Assange is my HERO!!!

Bradley Manning will probably be hung out to dry without a fair trail i am sure, but whatever. Assange is still my hero.

Anyone who thinks he is some sort of traitor can kiss my lilly-white ass.... We live in a free country with freedom of speech and freedom of expression. If you send me a picture of your auntie while she is drunk and shagging some guy that looks like Brad Pitt, then I can post it online...that's the way it is.

If you do not like that, then DON'T let anyone see that picture..........

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Bradley Manning will probably be hung out to dry without a fair trail i am sure, but whatever. Assange is still my hero.

What part do you think will be unfair? It looks like a pretty easy case for the prosecution, and Wikileaks published the material, so it's not like we have to trust the government when they talk vaguely about secrets released.

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

What part do you think will be unfair?

We will see. Neither you nor me have any clue about the evidence and what is actually out there. He is already being treated unfairly (albeit my opinion) in prison. His current status and treatment in isolation in no way is on par with the alleged crime.

America likes witch hunts. We burned witches, slaughtered Indians and other natives, went after the Communists and the Japanese. Now it is homosexuals, Muslims and 'terrorists'.

It will be unfair as Bradley Manning is convicted in the court of public opinion long before he even sets foot in a courtroom.

And if it is such an 'easy case' in your words, then I would have expected the trial to be over and done with already. Now what reason would the prosecution have for delaying it then?