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tkhayes

Wikileaks nomination for Nobel....

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That makes two people in this thread who can't or won't tell the difference between those who sign their life over to their country and those who suck the public tit.



Once again, you lump everyone into two categories. Those who serve or those who do not (and therefore are lazy fucks sucking off the tit) as you say.

Rather than the name-calling, perhaps you could offer a point or two.

If I serve the country by carrying a gun, then the government owes me a lifetime of security, health care and benefits. I get it.

What about the lady who assembled the gun that I carry? What about the guy who put together the bullets that I shoot in that gun? What about the Immigrant who sewed the armor that I am wearing? What about the housekeeper who took care of my house while I was in Iraq (defending the country), took care of my kids, so my wife could get a job so we could make ends meet....???

[sarcasm]These people are OBVIOUSLY of no value to the country[/sarcasm] is what you are saying and do not deserve the same benefits as me. Yet they ALL greatly contributed to the cause.

It is a valid argument. EVERYONE should contribute to the cause (by paying taxes). Trouble is that in this country, half the people do not pay any taxes and we say this is a 'good thing' and then blame them for everything (lazy fucks) and offer them nothing.

Perhaps we should charge them taxes, and then offer them something in return. Health care for a start. Roads, Public education, a MILITARY, all socialist programs. All worth something to society. All good for society. All PAID FOR by society.

And no, I did not say "Owe them a living" before you decide (once again) to change what I am saying into something that I am not saying.

I said what I said and that is what I meant.

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>If you join the military and agree to put yourself in harms way whenever
>they want you to, subject yourself to their rules, regulations and laws, and
>agree to do these things for the life of the contract with extremely limited ways
>of getting out of your contract...then you can enjoy the health care they
>provide. How does that compare with the life of an average American? It
>doesn't.

You have just agreed with me.

Veteran's health care is a socialist (i.e. government controlled) entitlement (i.e. access guaranteed by legislation) program. What you listed above is why you think veterans are indeed entitled to this particular socialist health care program. I agree.

You can now return to the rant in progress.

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>If you join the military and agree to put yourself in harms way whenever
>they want you to, subject yourself to their rules, regulations and laws, and
>agree to do these things for the life of the contract with extremely limited ways
>of getting out of your contract...then you can enjoy the health care they
>provide. How does that compare with the life of an average American? It
>doesn't.

You have just agreed with me.

Veteran's health care is a socialist (i.e. government controlled) entitlement (i.e. access guaranteed by legislation) program. What you listed above is why you think veterans are indeed entitled to this particular socialist health care program. I agree.

You can now return to the rant in progress.



No, Bill, you're wrong.
In a socialist society everyone is supported by the government regardless of what they do. They also have no choice in the matter except to leave the country...if they can.
Our military, at least for the last several decades, has been and still is 100% voluntary. And, even if you join, there are still duties you must perform if you wish to collect the benefits.
You may now return to wishing for Utopia.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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What about the lady who assembled the gun that I carry? What about the guy who put together the bullets that I shoot in that gun? What about the Immigrant who sewed the armor that I am wearing? What about the housekeeper who took care of my house while I was in Iraq (defending the country), took care of my kids, so my wife could get a job so we could make ends meet....???



Did any of them agree to put their life on the line whenever their superior told them to? Did they give up what most of us consider to be a normal lifestyle? Did any of them agree to obey any and all lawfull orders regardless of risk to theirself?
Nope. Not a one. If you still can't understand the difference in committment and dedication then I don't know what else to say.

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It is a valid argument. EVERYONE should contribute to the cause (by paying taxes). Trouble is that in this country, half the people do not pay any taxes and we say this is a 'good thing' and then blame them for everything (lazy fucks) and offer them nothing.
Perhaps we should charge them taxes, and then offer them something in return. Health care for a start. Roads, Public education, a MILITARY, all socialist programs. All worth something to society. All good for society. All PAID FOR by society.



And there lies one of the big differences between you and I. You want to give free benefits to people who don't pay a dime in taxes. Hell, i'll make a deal with you. If you can guarantee that only those who truly need the help, who honestly cannot work as opposed to will not work, will recieve benefits then you will be on the home stretch to convincing me that socialized health care is a good thing. The other thing you have to do is agree that those of us who participate in high risk activities will pay an additional premium over and above the taxes paid by those who live a more sedentary lifestyle. because if you are gong to be doing stupid shit like breaking your neck swooping, i sure as hell don't want to pay for it if all i do for excitement is walk 6 miles a day. Asking others to pay for your fuckups is begging as sure as the wino outside the pub asking for a couple bucks.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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In a socialist society everyone is supported by the government regardless of what they do. They also have no choice in the matter except to leave the country...if they can.

By that definition, Great Britain does not have socialized medicine. Money can buy you a private doctor (ever heard of Harley Street in London?)

I believe there are private hospitals as well.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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In a socialist society everyone is supported by the government regardless of what they do. They also have no choice in the matter except to leave the country...if they can.

By that definition, Great Britain does not have socialized medicine. Money can buy you a private doctor (ever heard of Harley Street in London?)

I believe there are private hospitals as well.

Wendy P.



1.Great Britain is not a socialist nation.
2.Citizens are still taxed to pay for their health care whether they use it or not. As far as I know they cannot opt out. They do have the option of paying for private insurance which gets them a bit better health care and cuts the waiting time a little.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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I would agree with both of those things. Except that in many cases, the health care that can be purchased is as good as any in the world.

One question is whether health care needs to be paid for whether you use it or not.

We're doing so in the US, just not up front. Every time you use a hospital, you pay for others' health care. When you pay county taxes, part of that goes to the local hospital district many times.

We all pay for things that we don't use. It's part of living in a country. If you don't have children, you generally pay for schools; if you don't drive, you generally pay for roads.

And we're way far from Assange now :ph34r:

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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You want to give free benefits to people who don't pay a dime in taxes.



That is the exact opposite of what I said, but I would expect nothing less from you. EVERYONE pays some taxes. If you earn income, you pay taxes. period.

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Hell, i'll make a deal with you.



No you will not, since neither of us makes the decision about Universal Health care or anything else for that matter. This is a discussion, not the signing of a bill.

We already pay a higher premium for high risk activities. I pay it every day in that I cannot get a private health insurance policy, and i pay a premium for life insurance.

I pay more for my mortgage because I am self employed, I pay more in health care overall because my body is more beat-up than most, I pay for it all my life. I already do that. To continue with the same system AFTER we change would mean there is no change.

But i am not asking for anyone to pay for my beat-up body, or my mortgage, or to hand me a free living. I AM asking for a tax funded health care bill that does not discriminate between me and a 5 year old with leukemia. And I am willing to pay the taxes for that system.

So what you want is to change the system such that nothing changes? I get it. The system is perfect already.

That is why we rank 39th in the world.... I get it.

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I would agree with both of those things. Except that in many cases, the health care that can be purchased is as good as any in the world.

One question is whether health care needs to be paid for whether you use it or not.

We're doing so in the US, just not up front. Every time you use a hospital, you pay for others' health care. When you pay county taxes, part of that goes to the local hospital district many times.

We all pay for things that we don't use. It's part of living in a country. If you don't have children, you generally pay for schools; if you don't drive, you generally pay for roads.

And we're way far from Assange now :ph34r:

Wendy P.



Yes, we are quite a ways from Assange. Thank God.

Most people do not have the means to pay for their own private teacher or home school their children. Even if they did, there are ways to avoid having to pay anything towards public schools. Many school systems are funded entirely by property taxes. If you do not have children that need to go to school you can live in just such an area.
Roadways are like airports. It wouldn't make much sense for each person to build their own. It's one of the very few things best left to the government.
Health insurance is something that most people can afford. For those that can't because they are unable to work we have government programs. For those who can't afford it because they won't work....tough cookies.
As you can tell from my posts i am a firm believer in each person paying their fair share. Want to live a risky lifestyle (I do)? Fine. But your health care will cost you more whether buying insurance or paying taxes. Happy reading books, eating healthy foods and walking 6 miles a day? Great! You get a break on insurance or taxes.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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You want to give free benefits to people who don't pay a dime in taxes.



That is the exact opposite of what I said, but I would expect nothing less from you. EVERYONE pays some taxes. If you earn income, you pay taxes. period.

Quote

Hell, i'll make a deal with you.



No you will not, since neither of us makes the decision about Universal Health care or anything else for that matter. This is a discussion, not the signing of a bill.

We already pay a higher premium for high risk activities. I pay it every day in that I cannot get a private health insurance policy, and i pay a premium for life insurance.

I pay more for my mortgage because I am self employed, I pay more in health care overall because my body is more beat-up than most, I pay for it all my life. I already do that. To continue with the same system AFTER we change would mean there is no change.

But i am not asking for anyone to pay for my beat-up body, or my mortgage, or to hand me a free living. I AM asking for a tax funded health care bill that does not discriminate between me and a 5 year old with leukemia. And I am willing to pay the taxes for that system.

So what you want is to change the system such that nothing changes? I get it. The system is perfect already.

That is why we rank 39th in the world.... I get it.


I guess you don't understand that there is a very significant portion of the population who do not pay any income taxes. In fact, under some of the idiotic policies government came up with, some of those people who paid no taxes got a tax refund! Are you saying you don't want benefits for them?
Did you ever think we are ranked so low in life expectancy because we are ranked #1 by a VERY large margin in obesity? Yep, that's right, we are number one! More than 30% of the US population has a BMI of over 30. Japan? Less than 5% of the population. But what the fuck. I doubt if there is any connection there. :S
Why shouldn't a health care system discriminate bewteen you and a kid with leukemia? The kid had no choice in the matter. Do you think he asked to have cancer? You, on the other hand, had a choice. You chose to participate in a high risk activity. You chose to participate in an even riskier offshoot of that activity. Then you took a chance and made a mistake. Your condition is because rational decisions YOU made. You can't say you didn't know you could get hurt or that you didn't know it was risky. And yes, you ARE asking others to pay for your mistake by providing you with health care out of their pocket. Like I said before, you aren't accepting responsibility for your actions. You got hurt and you want others to foot the bill.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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That is why we rank 39th in the world.... I get it.



That ranking only matters if you want to believe what they tell you about how important their ranking system is.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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That is why we rank 39th in the world.... I get it.



That ranking only matters if you want to believe what they tell you about how important their ranking system is.



What ranking system? He hasn't posted any links or data or anything. For all we know it could be his own system.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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That is why we rank 39th in the world.... I get it.



No, you don't. We're #1 in the only stat that counts in that study - efficacy, which shows how well the doctors and hospitals do their work. The rest is claptrap that skews the study toward socialized healthcare.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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That is why we rank 39th in the world.... I get it.



That ranking only matters if you want to believe what they tell you about how important their ranking system is.



What ranking system? He hasn't posted any links or data or anything. For all we know it could be his own system.



It's the UN healthcare study from a few years back.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I guess you don't understand that there is a very significant portion of the population who do not pay any income taxes. In fact, under some of the idiotic policies government came up with, some of those people who paid no taxes got a tax refund! Are you saying you don't want benefits for them?



um, read my previous post - once again. I said:
Quote

EVERYONE pays some taxes. If you earn income, you pay taxes. period.


that would actually require changes to the tax code - i am all for it.

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Like I said before, you aren't accepting responsibility for your actions. You got hurt and you want others to foot the bill.



And when you get hurt, i will help foot the bill - through taxes. Just like when you fight a war, I will foot that bill too, even if I do not want to.

You know what I mean - the SOCIALIST military system we have......with the SOCIALIST benefits, and the SOCIALIST VA, and the SOCIALIST Medicare and the SOCIALIST Medicaid and the SOCIALIST roads, and the SOCIALIST Water treatment systems and the SOCIALIST....

Why don't you take personal responsibility for your own water? why don't you take personal responsibility for your wars? Why don't you build your own roads. I mean you drive on them and you expect someone else to foot the bill don't you? Just like me.

but thanks again for making my argument for me.

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We're #1 in the only stat that counts in that study - efficacy



sure, that's the only standard needed. That's whay everyone uses that as a gauge of their health care systems.....:S

Show me the source......I showed you mine.....WHO, and it is ongoing. USA is slipping year after year, thus whatever we are doing apparently is not working.

Socialized medicine countries continue to climb, demonstrating that they must be doing something right.

The USA does have the best system in the world - but only if you can afford it. If you cannot afford it, then you are fucked.

Back to the patriotism, caring about your fellow American, greed, etc......not to mention common fucking sense.

Not a free ride for anyone, but an option to supply everyone with good health care at a lower per capita cost. Adjust the tax system, adjust the tort system, everyone gets health care, even the dumb fucks, and even the kids with leukemia.

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Show me the source......I showed you mine.....WHO, and it is ongoing. USA is slipping year after year, thus whatever we are doing apparently is not working.



The efficacy stat is from the same study. If you have a better stat to show how well the hospitals and doctors are doing their jobs, trot it out.

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Socialized medicine countries continue to climb, demonstrating that they must be doing something right.



Twaddle. It shows that they're better at what the study is predisposed for - socialized medicine.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I guess you don't understand that there is a very significant portion of the population who do not pay any income taxes. In fact, under some of the idiotic policies government came up with, some of those people who paid no taxes got a tax refund! Are you saying you don't want benefits for them?



um, read my previous post - once again. I said:
Quote

EVERYONE pays some taxes. If you earn income, you pay taxes. period.


that would actually require changes to the tax code - i am all for it.

Quote

Like I said before, you aren't accepting responsibility for your actions. You got hurt and you want others to foot the bill.



And when you get hurt, i will help foot the bill - through taxes. Just like when you fight a war, I will foot that bill too, even if I do not want to.

You know what I mean - the SOCIALIST military system we have......with the SOCIALIST benefits, and the SOCIALIST VA, and the SOCIALIST Medicare and the SOCIALIST Medicaid and the SOCIALIST roads, and the SOCIALIST Water treatment systems and the SOCIALIST....

Why don't you take personal responsibility for your own water? why don't you take personal responsibility for your wars? Why don't you build your own roads. I mean you drive on them and you expect someone else to foot the bill don't you? Just like me.

but thanks again for making my argument for me.


You just don't get it, do you? there are some things that make no sense for each person to do on their own. Military, roads, schools, water treatment, sewers, etc.
Most things most people can handle on their own. Eating, sleeping, bathing, BUYING HEALTH INSURANCE, getting to work, etc etc etc.
Once again, the military is NOT socialist. It is a voluntary job that provides it's employees with health care, something you have a distaste for. They also provide room and board. But if the soldier does not live up to his/her agreement they lose all of that.
If you want subsidized health care then move to some country that has it.
Yeah, I've made your argument. The one that says you want everyone else to pay your way. :D
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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Most things most people can handle on their own. Eating, sleeping, bathing, BUYING HEALTH INSURANCE, getting to work, etc etc etc.



That is why there are tens of millions of people uninsured.

thanks again for making my argument.

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Once again, the military is NOT socialist. It is a voluntary job that provides it's employees with health care, something you have a distaste for.



It's a government department, set forth in the Constitution, paid for by the taxpayer.

Once AGAIN, thanks for making my argument, or at the very least demonstrating that you have no idea what you are talking about.

No need for me to move to another country when I, and the majority of people, can work towards the goals that we want as a majority within the limits of the Constitution through elections of representatives that do what the people want.

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>In a socialist society everyone is supported by the government regardless of what they do.

That's not true at all. Plenty of socialist systems have remarkable degrees of racism, age-ism, sexism etc. They also have qualifications that limit services to some people. Veteran's health care is a good example.

Socialism doesn't mean communism. All socialism means is that the government controls the means of production and distribution for a good or a service. Roads are socialist, even though you can't drive on one without a license or insurance.

>Our military, at least for the last several decades, has been and still is 100% voluntary.

Dude, you keep defending your favorite socialist entitlement program as if I don't agree with it. For the last time - I AGREE WITH YOU. The military IS entitled to a government run and controlled health care system.

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Most things most people can handle on their own. Eating, sleeping, bathing, BUYING HEALTH INSURANCE, getting to work, etc etc etc.



That is why there are tens of millions of people uninsured.

thanks again for making my argument.

Quote

Once again, the military is NOT socialist. It is a voluntary job that provides it's employees with health care, something you have a distaste for.



It's a government department, set forth in the Constitution, paid for by the taxpayer.

Once AGAIN, thanks for making my argument, or at the very least demonstrating that you have no idea what you are talking about.

No need for me to move to another country when I, and the majority of people, can work towards the goals that we want as a majority within the limits of the Constitution through elections of representatives that do what the people want.


Tens of millions uninsured.
Feel free to pay for theirs. But don't even try to force me to.
So a department of the government can't have employees? :D
Oh my God! Your arguments get more ridiculous by the minute! :D:D
Better stick to begging for money. Though funny, you will never make it as a comic. :D
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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The military IS entitled to a government run and controlled health care system.



Yep. But you don't seem to understand why they have government supplid health care the the rest of us don't.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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Yep. But you don't seem to understand why they have government supplid health care the the rest of us don't.



yer goddamn right I don't! If it's good enough for them, then its good enough for EVERYONE!

"all men a re created equal...." NOT!

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Yep. But you don't seem to understand why they have government supplid health care the the rest of us don't.



yer goddamn right I don't! If it's good enough for them, then its good enough for EVERYONE!

"all men a re created equal...." NOT!



Some are just more equal than others.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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Yep. But you don't seem to understand why they have government supplid health care the the rest of us don't.



yer goddamn right I don't! If it's good enough for them, then its good enough for EVERYONE!

"all men a re created equal...." NOT!



Some are just more equal than others.



You have proven you are good with that ... kissing patrician ass anyone??

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