Guns: Facts top feelings

[JohnRich 4]

News:

Facts top feelings, change views on gun issues

AFTER reading through reporter Taylor Dungjen’s front page story today on the relatively trouble-free growth of concealed carry of handguns in Ohio, I have to admit I was wrong...

For now, let’s just say I freely admit I was on the wrong side of this argument for too long, and the facts presented by gun rights advocates over the years finally have brought me to see the issue with appropriate clarity...

Source: http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2011/02/06/opinion/doc4d4e1b29419fe014211343.txt?viewmode=fullstory

[Kennedy 0]

Yes, facts trump feelings.

Two problems:

First, for too many anti-gun pro-government-control types, they do let their feelings overrule the facts.

Second, even if they do keep their feelings out of it, they either make up false "facts" or simply ignore scientific provable repeatable results.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Beachbum 0]

Are we supposed to vote how we think logic would dictate, or how we think it actually IS in the world? I voted the latter.

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Are we supposed to vote how we think logic would dictate, or how we think it actually IS in the world? I voted the latter.

Many people think "Guns are bad"

Many people thing "Skydiving is insane"

Many people think "All Muslims are terrorists"

Many people think "Black people are inferior" (substitute any racial group for "Black" if you wish).

And on and on. Allowing feelings to override facts is usually a bad idea.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[turtlespeed 226]

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Are we supposed to vote how we think logic would dictate, or how we think it actually IS in the world? I voted the latter.

Many people think "Guns are bad"

Many people thing "Skydiving is insane"

Many people think "All Muslims are terrorists"

Many people think "Black people are inferior" (substitute any racial group for "Black" if you wish).

And on and on. Allowing feelings to override facts is usually a bad idea.

Many people don't think.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Guest]

Why have facts / truths, when you can make up your own? The Soviets did it.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Are we supposed to vote how we think logic would dictate, or how we think it actually IS in the world? I voted the latter.

Many people think "Guns are bad"

Many people thing "Skydiving is insane"

Many people think "All Muslims are terrorists"

Many people think "Black people are inferior" (substitute any racial group for "Black" if you wish).

And on and on. Allowing feelings to override facts is usually a bad idea.

Many people don't think.

I'm going to disagree with you a bit there.

Many people do think these things. Their thoughts are based on false assumptions, bad facts, or feelings (many of which are based on sterotypes they were taught since birth).

Just because the thoughts are irrational and fucked up, it doesn't mean the people aren't thinking.

This applies to a lot more than guns.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JohnRich 4]

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Are we supposed to vote how we think logic would dictate, or how we think it actually IS in the world? I voted the latter.

Good question. I was intending the vote to be based upon "what should be". But I can see already from the results that many people are voting based upon "what is".

[turtlespeed 226]

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Are we supposed to vote how we think logic would dictate, or how we think it actually IS in the world? I voted the latter.

Many people think "Guns are bad"

Many people thing "Skydiving is insane"

Many people think "All Muslims are terrorists"

Many people think "Black people are inferior" (substitute any racial group for "Black" if you wish).

And on and on. Allowing feelings to override facts is usually a bad idea.

Many people don't think.

I'm going to disagree with you a bit there.

Many people do think these things. Their thoughts are based on false assumptions, bad facts, or feelings (many of which are based on sterotypes they were taught since birth).

Just because the thoughts are irrational and fucked up, it doesn't mean the people aren't thinking.

This applies to a lot more than guns.

My statement, had you thought about it , was stating that people do not think for themselves anymore, "Sheeple", that kind of thing.

Take for instance when they polled some black new yorkers, they inserted policies that McCain was using for his platform, and the black voters were all for the policies, and when asked, they said that they would vote for Obama. Then they were told that the guy had the papers mixed up, and they were told that the policies were not Obamas, they were still going to vote for obama no matter what . . . "Sheeple."

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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My statement, had you thought about it , was stating that people do not think for themselves anymore, "Sheeple", that kind of thing.

Take for instance when they polled some black new yorkers, they inserted policies that McCain was using for his platform, and the black voters were all for the policies, and when asked, they said that they would vote for Obama. Then they were told that the guy had the papers mixed up, and they were told that the policies were not Obamas, they were still going to vote for obama no matter what . . . "Sheeple."

I didn't quote the whole thing, I don't want to turn this into a huge pyramid.

Very few of us think entirely for ourselves. We all apply our experiences, teachings and prejudices to our thoughts.
In the example you used, those voters were going to vote for Obama no matter what policies he had. Because they had already made up their minds that he was "their man."

Some people on here will never see anything Cary Q does or anything related to him in a positive light, no matter what that is. Again they have already made their minds up about him (and in this case, even if he cured both cancer and AIDS, he'd still owe Santa 3 or 4 presents).

Are either of these cases truly people "Not thinking for themselves", or is it a case of basing thoughts on feelings more than facts, or is it somewhere in the middle.

I don't think anybody is really and truly impartail and objective, and that includes me.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[turtlespeed 226]

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Some people on here will never see anything Cary Q does or anything related to him in a positive light, no matter what that is. Again they have already made their minds up about him (and in this case, even if he cured both cancer and AIDS, he'd still owe Santa 3 or 4 presents).

Are either of these cases truly people "Not thinking for themselves", or is it a case of basing thoughts on feelings more than facts, or is it somewhere in the middle.

I don't think anybody is really and truly impartail and objective, and that includes me.

All Cary would have to do is ADMIT that what he did was wrong. Send the money back to who it belongs to + interest, + a little bit for the inconvenience, and apologize.

He would be readily forgiven. I don't see that happening, but I can hope.

that said, you do realize, don't you that some people - Many, in fact, are more susceptable to the lemmming phenomenon than others? It is to those many that I speaking of, not your many, your many have a much lower level of involvement.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[VincePetaccio 0]

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Yes, facts trump feelings.

Two problems:

First, for too many anti-gun pro-government-control types, they do let their feelings overrule the facts.

You seem to feel as though your method of approaching the world (facts > feelings) is the correct method. This is shallow, close-minded thinking.

Please learn to accept that there are many ways of thinking about the world that are equally valid, and to those with opinions differing from your own, their opinions are just as valid as are yours to you (have fun deciphering that sentence, lol).

For example, I'm "anti-gun." But I'm also a libertarian- the opposite of "pro-government control." So your attempt to correlate opinions on gun control with opinions on government involvement fail.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[turtlespeed 226]

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Yes, facts trump feelings.

Two problems:

First, for too many anti-gun pro-government-control types, they do let their feelings overrule the facts.

You seem to feel as though your method of approaching the world (facts > feelings) is the correct method. This is shallow, close-minded thinking.

Please learn to accept that there are many ways of thinking about the world that are equally valid, and to those with opinions differing from your own, their opinions are just as valid as are yours to you (have fun deciphering that sentence, lol).

For example, I'm "anti-gun." But I'm also a libertarian- the opposite of "pro-government control." So your attempt to correlate opinions on gun control with opinions on government involvement fail.

So in essence - you decide with your heart not your head. Facts don't matter, just how you feel at the end of the day. If you feel like you opinion has been validated youagree with the world, and if not then you argue and tell someone else that thier opinion is wrong.

Pretty close in a nutshell, huh?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Some people on here will never see anything Cary Q does or anything related to him in a positive light, no matter what that is. Again they have already made their minds up about him (and in this case, even if he cured both cancer and AIDS, he'd still owe Santa 3 or 4 presents).

Are either of these cases truly people "Not thinking for themselves", or is it a case of basing thoughts on feelings more than facts, or is it somewhere in the middle.

I don't think anybody is really and truly impartial and objective, and that includes me.

All Cary would have to do is ADMIT that what he did was wrong. Send the money back to who it belongs to + interest, + a little bit for the inconvenience, and apologize.

He would be readily forgiven. I don't see that happening, but I can hope.

that said, you do realize, don't you that some people - Many, in fact, are more susceptable to the lemmming phenomenon than others? It is to those many that I speaking of, not your many, your many have a much lower level of involvement.

Absolutely.
Some people are far, far more open minded than others, Some are so closed-minded that no amount of facts will convince them that they are wrong.

Others (your "many") are suceptible to a convincing argument, often based far more on feelings that facts.

And while I applaud (and believe) your attitude towards Cary Q, don't you think that there are those who would never forgive him, no matter what he did?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[VincePetaccio 0]

First of all, we're not talking about my opinion on the matter, because I never stated it (read: you don't know it). Likewise, we're not talking about how I make decisions, because- again- I never said anything about that.

What we ARE talking about is being open-minded, civil, and able to have a healthy discussion.

I don't recall ever suggesting whether his opinion was right or wrong, just that it's a bit childish to not be open to hearing what others have to say. To clarify, the "shallow, close-minded thinking" that I was referring to was his apparent lack of multiplistic thinking.

Every now and then there is black, and there is white. But most of the time, everything is a shade of grey. Try to see that.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm "anti-gun." But I'm also a libertarian- the opposite of "pro-government control."

The only way to be both is to be "anti-gun" as a personal decision you only apply for yourself and those you are responsible for - and you'd let others decide for themselves if they want guns or not.

I know the pro-gunners on this site respect that position.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 226]

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And while I applaud (and believe) your attitude towards Cary Q, don't you think that there are those who would never forgive him, no matter what he did?

I don't think I know anyone that would not take any steps toward forgiving if the wrongs were righted and a TRUE effort made toward reparation.

I'mnot saying that they don't exist, but it's not the people that I associate with.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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First of all, we're not talking about my opinion on the matter, because I never stated it (read: you don't know it). Likewise, we're not talking about how I make decisions, because- again- I never said anything about that.

What we ARE talking about is being open-minded, civil, and able to have a healthy discussion.

I don't recall ever suggesting whether his opinion was right or wrong, just that it's a bit childish to not be open to hearing what others have to say. To clarify, the "shallow, close-minded thinking" that I was referring to was his apparent lack of multiplistic thinking.

Every now and then there is black, and there is white. But most of the time, everything is a shade of grey. Try to see that.

I believe yuo posted:

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For example, I'm "anti-gun." But I'm also a libertarian- the opposite of "pro-government control." So your attempt to correlate opinions on gun control with opinions on government involvement fail.

unless the "I'm" in your statemet was a hypothetical person, I believe you stated your opinion.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

I'm curious how many people that voted "Facts top feelings" also believe in religion.

Of course, JR's intent here wasn't to begin a religious debate, but I think it's hypocritical of people to pick one or the other simply based on whatever is convenient for them at the moment.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

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I'm curious how many people that voted "Facts top feelings" also believe in religion.

Do you determine a difference in spirituality and religion?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[VincePetaccio 0]

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I'm "anti-gun." But I'm also a libertarian- the opposite of "pro-government control."

The only way to be both is to be "anti-gun" as a personal decision you only apply for yourself and those you are responsible for - and you'd let others decide for themselves if they want guns or not.

I know the pro-gunners on this site respect that position.

You've hit the nail on the head. I think the government should keep its nose out of our business, and I believe that we have an innate right to make our own decisions on the matter of gun ownership; I do not believe that a government should have to "grant" us some right to it.

However, I personally feel as though guns are unnecessary as a whole and that they only lead to bad. Others may agree or disagree as they see fit, and I'm open to that.

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unless the "I'm" in your statemet was a hypothetical person, I believe you stated your opinion.

True, I did state an opinion here, but simply to show that assumptions about correlations can be flawed. The original discussion is whether facts should "trump" feelings or vica-versa. I'm not sure I ever spoke to that question.

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I'm curious how many people that voted "Facts top feelings" also believe in religion.

That's an interesting question. I'd be interested in seeing how people feel about that.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[quade 4]

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I'm curious how many people that voted "Facts top feelings" also believe in religion.

Do you determine a difference in spirituality and religion?

Call it what you will, but if you believe in a god, you're not basing your belief on facts.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[turtlespeed 226]

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I'm curious how many people that voted "Facts top feelings" also believe in religion.

Do you determine a difference in spirituality and religion?

Call it what you will, but if you believe in a god, you're not basing your belief on facts.

I consider the two separate, for what it's worth.

I answered feelings trump facts - but I was understanding the question of what is not what should be.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

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However, I personally feel as though guns are unnecessary as a whole and that they only lead to bad. Others may agree or disagree as they see fit, and I'm open to that.

that's closer than most get to an individualistic perspective

if you replace "as a whole" with "for me" ('as a whole' is none of my business)
delete "may" (who am I you to give permission to another's opinions)
and just delete "and I'm open to that" (being 'open' to another's position is also none of my business - what am I really judging?)

If we do that, we have a serious winner.

But, take note, you would be considered a "pro gun nutjob" with your position by the anti-gun types here and most places.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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I'm curious how many people that voted "Facts top feelings" also believe in religion.

Do you determine a difference in spirituality and religion?

Call it what you will, but if you believe in a god, you're not basing your belief on facts.

I would have to ask you to define "Facts".

I believe in God. I don't follow any organized religion. All religions that I know of are created by man and corrupted by those in charge.

My belief in God is based on personal experiences, facts if you will. Things I have seen and felt. Purely subjective, open to interpretation and certainly not anything that could be called "evidence".

But it's enough to convince me that God exists. Most of the time anyway.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo