wmw999 2,460
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DanG 1
QuoteDo you always act like a spoiled child when you get called out for putting words in other people's mouths, or is this a new thing for you?
Do you always act like a douchebag when someone calls you out on your inconsistencies? I also notice you didn't answer the question. When does life begin?
QuoteThe end point is the same - no pregnancy. The path to the end point is different.
Unless the IUD fails, the egg never implants. The practical effect is as if the egg were never fertilized in the first place, just like my example of fibroids.
Any rational person reading this would deduce that you believe implantation is the key moment. You will now accuse me of putting words in your mouth like the pedant you are. If you don't want to answer the question, just say so, but stop dancing around.
QuoteThe case involving an abortion is obviously different. The egg *has* implanted and the woman makes the decision after that point to terminate the pregnancy.
But if implantation is not the bright line, then the practical effect of an abortion is the same. It's as if the egg were never fertilized. Why is an early abortion different from an IUD?
- Dan G
DanG 1
QuoteIn my opinion human life starts at conception. What else could it be? The human being, possessing a soul, comes a short time later.
Okay, thanks for the straight answer. How short of a time are we talking? There are plenty of pro-choice people who could completely agree with you, but their idea of a short time is three months, while your idea of a short time might be a nanosecond.
- Dan G
tkhayes 348
QuoteOh, for the luvva Pete....
don't get bent on that dude, people DISAGREE with you, and rather strongly.
So if you want to argue, then you better be ready to argue.
QuoteIn my opinion human life starts at conception. What else could it be? The human being, possessing a soul, comes a short time later.
I'm curious to know...
- your opinion on just when the "soul" appears. How much later after conception.
- is it OK with you to abort prior to the "soul's" appearance but not after?
Granted, I did not read the entire thread...you may have answered this already but would you please iterate..just once though, eh?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
tkhayes 348
QuoteIn my opinion human life starts at conception. What else could it be? The human being, possessing a soul, comes a short time later.
IMO, human life is not worth THAT much, even though we preach that it is. we murder thousands of people in wars, people die from disease, we let people die for lack of nutrition, health care and so on.
Why do we spend so much time worrying about people not born yet when we seemingly could give a fuck about all those people that are already here?
The debate is driven by religious beliefs and that alone. Since I disagree with religion fundamentally, I also disagree with an anti-abortion argument that is based upon religion.
ergo, it does not matter when 'human life' actually begins.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteIn my opinion human life starts at conception. What else could it be? The human being, possessing a soul, comes a short time later.
I'm curious to know...
- your opinion on just when the "soul" appears. How much later after conception.
- is it OK with you to abort prior to the "soul's" appearance but not after?
Granted, I did not read the entire thread...you may have answered this already but would you please iterate..just once though, eh?
Appears?
No
There from the first second
Life is life
And it is human life IMO
To think otherwsie devalues life
Saddly that is the direction we (as a cutlure) keep going
And abortion is only a symptom, not a cause
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteIn my opinion human life starts at conception. What else could it be? The human being, possessing a soul, comes a short time later.
I'm curious to know...
- your opinion on just when the "soul" appears. How much later after conception.
- is it OK with you to abort prior to the "soul's" appearance but not after?
Granted, I did not read the entire thread...you may have answered this already but would you please iterate..just once though, eh?
HOLY FUCK
a Soul will exist in one cell when Egg and sperm become a fertilized CELL?
must be fuckin crowded in there.
Are we back to how many angels can dance on the head of a pinhead???
maadmax 0
Okay, thanks for the straight answer. How short of a time are we talking? There are plenty of pro-choice people who could completely agree with you, but their idea of a short time is three months, while your idea of a short time might be a nanosecond.
Don't know the answer. But in my opinion I would consider electrical activity in the brain as a indication.
champu 1
QuoteWhy do we spend so much time worrying about people not born yet when we seemingly could give a fuck about all those people that are already here?
This is a broader question than you may even realize. How does anyone, with any given underlying rationale, get worked up and start shouting [and voting] to get their way? And after that, how does everyone else come to find out about it?
Abortion, gay marriage, and ID in schools seem like some really bizarre battles for Christian folks to focus on. I think their arguments fall flat as it is, but if that was all any Christian fought over I'd be really worried about the future of humanity. Thankfully, I don't believe that's the case. There are a lot of Christians that do focus on these things, however, and I think the reason the anti-evolution, pro-life, and anti-lgbt movements gain so much traction is because they have the morality stamp of approval and more importantly because they are easy.
The "so much time worrying" bit of your post stood out to me because that's all it is. You can feel accomplished in fighting to achieve these "great moral victories" and you don't actually have to do anything other than complain and vote other people's rights away. No personal sacrifices necessary.
It might be worthwhile for everyone, Christian or otherwise, to take a little inventory of the things they feel so strongly about and ask themselves if any require them to do anything.
maadmax 0
I'm curious to know...
- your opinion on just when the "soul" appears. How much later after conception.
- is it OK with you to abort prior to the "soul's" appearance but not after?
Granted, I did not read the entire thread...you may have answered this already but would you please iterate..just once though, eh?
Hey Andy,
Difficult question, I wouldn't think the termination of a morula or a blastocyst would be the same as terminating a fetus.
...
maadmax 0
IMO, human life is not worth THAT much, even though we preach that it is. we murder thousands of people in wars, people die from disease, we let people die for lack of nutrition, health care and so on.
Why do we spend so much time worrying about people not born yet when we seemingly could give a fuck about all those people that are already here?
The debate is driven by religious beliefs and that alone. Since I disagree with religion fundamentally, I also disagree with an anti-abortion argument that is based upon religion.
ergo, it does not matter when 'human life' actually begins.
Why do we spend so much time worrying about people not born yet when we seemingly could give a fuck about all those people that are already here?
The debate is driven by religious beliefs and that alone. Since I disagree with religion fundamentally, I also disagree with an anti-abortion argument that is based upon religion.
ergo, it does not matter when 'human life' actually begins.
Granted. If true reality is defined by an arbitrary system of right and wrong then you are right, it does not matter who lives and who dies. My comments are based on the premise God exists, and therefore so does a standard of absolute right and wrong.
...
kallend 2,030
QuoteIMO, human life is not worth THAT much, even though we preach that it is. we murder thousands of people in wars, people die from disease, we let people die for lack of nutrition, health care and so on.
Why do we spend so much time worrying about people not born yet when we seemingly could give a fuck about all those people that are already here?
The debate is driven by religious beliefs and that alone. Since I disagree with religion fundamentally, I also disagree with an anti-abortion argument that is based upon religion.
ergo, it does not matter when 'human life' actually begins.
Granted. If true reality is defined by an arbitrary system of right and wrong then you are right, it does not matter who lives and who dies. My comments are based on the premise God exists, and therefore so does a standard of absolute right and wrong.
...
Sorry, but there is NO absolute standard - just opinion that changes with the times. In the 12th Century the Crusades were considered right. In the 15th the Inquisition was considered right. In the 20th many good Christians supported the holocaust. For millennia, despotic kings thought they ruled by divine right. For centuries, conquering armies pillaged their way across continents with "god" on their side.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteIMO, human life is not worth THAT much, even though we preach that it is. we murder thousands of people in wars, people die from disease, we let people die for lack of nutrition, health care and so on.
Why do we spend so much time worrying about people not born yet when we seemingly could give a fuck about all those people that are already here?
The debate is driven by religious beliefs and that alone. Since I disagree with religion fundamentally, I also disagree with an anti-abortion argument that is based upon religion.
ergo, it does not matter when 'human life' actually begins.
Granted. If true reality is defined by an arbitrary system of right and wrong then you are right, it does not matter who lives and who dies. My comments are based on the premise God exists, and therefore so does a standard of absolute right and wrong.
...
Sorry, but there is NO absolute standard - just opinion that changes with the times. In the 12th Century the Crusades were considered right. In the 15th the Inquisition was considered right. In the 20th many good Christians supported the holocaust. For millennia, despotic kings thought they ruled by divine right. For centuries, conquering armies pillaged their way across continents with "god" on their side.
I believe it was Bob Dylan who said "If God's on our side, he'll stop the next war."
Personally, I think it's past time to accept that God doesn't actively choose sides in petty human conflicts and it's time to start sorting things out for ourselves and learn to live together, since we're never going to actually agree on anything.
rehmwa 2
Quoteit's time to start sorting things out for ourselves and learn to live together, since we're never going to actually agree on anything.
I disagree with that.
But if you choose to run for any high level authoritative role - I'd vote for you.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
QuoteQuoteit's time to start sorting things out for ourselves and learn to live together, since we're never going to actually agree on anything.
I disagree with that.
But if you choose to run for any high level authoritative role - I'd vote for you.
You just have to be argumentative, don't you? That was a "we" as in the societies of the world as a whole, not "we" as in individuals on DZ.com. My point is that we don't have to agree. We just have to get to the point where we respect the rights of others to make different choices than we would.
I think of an ideal world as something very similar to my family's Thanksgiving dinner table:
About half of us are Catholic. We've got a couple of Mormons, a few Jews, and last year a Muslim family that lived next door. At least two athiests and one Wiccan. There are a few Protestants (though, to my Catholic Grandma, I think this is worse than the athiests or the witch). Then there are the mix of partly Irish Euro-mutt ancestry Americans, a Canadian, a couple of Mexicans, a Puerto Rican, a Japanese guy, the Iraqi family from next door, and a Texan that turns up occasionally and makes my mother feel awkward by calling her "Ma'am." And a bunch of these folks are happily married, including two gay guys.
And to top it off, the Irish Catholic (or Irish Mormon) chunk of us don't tend to follow the niceties of polite society, so politics are often discussed over beer (and Martinellis sparkling apple cider for the Mormon and Muslim folks).
However, even though we disagree on some really fundamental things, we all do genuinely like and respect each other. Discussions certainly get lively, though, but as long as everyone leaves like usual via the door instead of the window, we call it a good night and part as friends and family with hugs and good wishes. And on the rare occasion of incidents of window egress, a repairman and an apology (AKA: Case of beer or cider) are sent promptly upon recovery from the hangover and good laughs are had by all about it at the next gathering and the offending party is teased unmercesslessly to ensure that the unfortunate event does not recur anytime in the foreseeable future.
To me, THAT is an ideal world.
DaVinci 0
QuoteThe debate is driven by religious beliefs and that alone.
Nonsense... I am not religious and I still think abortion is ending a life.
QuoteWhy do we spend so much time worrying about people not born yet when we seemingly could give a fuck about all those people that are already here?
See, if you were for saving those already (as you say) alive, AND for saving those not yet born... You would be consistent.
But you are not. You want to only save those who have passed through a vagina.
billvon 3,008
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>But you are not. You want to only save those who have passed through a vagina.
Personally, I want to save both. But in some cases it isn't my decision to make.
Personally, I want to save both. But in some cases it isn't my decision to make.
Andy9o8 2
Quote>But you are not. You want to only save those who have passed through a vagina.
Personally, I want to save both. But in some cases it isn't my decision to make.
Logically, then, both of you feel that C-section babies should be subject to execution.
How cold-blooded.
Hey, just doin' my bit here.
Carry on
Wendy P.
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