Why are zygote, embryo and fetus simply synonyms for human being?

[billvon 3,009]

>Logically, then, both of you feel that C-section babies should be subject to execution.

Not unless their mothers aren't US citizens.

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

Nonsense... I am not religious and I still think abortion is ending a life.

that may be, but you are a minority. Largely the anti-abortion debate is being pushed by the Catholic church (research Roe v Wade) and other right-wing religious fundamentalists.

Quote

But you are not. You want to only save those who have passed through a vagina.

Actually "I" never made any comment about what "I" do or do not want to save. My comments were about the hypocracy of much of society as a whole.

I am pro choice. I think aborting a 8.5 month old fetus would be wrong, it could easily survive, but I still would not call it 'murder'. I have no problem with a 3 month fetus being aborted, many women do not find out they are pregnant until at least that time.

I do not believe that conception means 'soul' because I do not believe in souls. I do not believe that conception means 'life' for that matter, no more than I think that a bacterial culture in a petri dish makes some 'exclusive form of life' particulalry worth preserving.

I also believe that trying to define when life begins is a side-show meant to distract from the real issue.

I DO BELIEVE, that these decisions are best made between doctors and their patients. I also believe that doctors and patients sometimes will make bad decisions, and that is none of my fucking business. I also believe that it is not a decision for government.

I believe that pro-lifers have every right to put up billboards, offer free counselling to gain their ground and do whateever else to convince women to have babies - that is their right. But I believe that probably NO LAWS should exist about abortion, one way or the other. Just like NO LAWS exist regarding the viability/decisions of knee-replacements or tonsillitis.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

I do not believe that conception means 'life' for that matter, no more than I think that a bacterial culture in a petri dish makes some 'exclusive form of life' particulalry worth preserving.

The major difference is that a petri dish will NEVER be much more, but a zygote, embryo, and fetus IS human.

Quote

But I believe that probably NO LAWS should exist about abortion, one way or the other. Just like NO LAWS exist regarding the viability/decisions of knee-replacements or tonsillitis

If a 14 year old wants a tonsillectomy, they have to have parental consent.... so why not require parental consent for a 14 year old to have an abortion?

[tkhayes 348]

At what point does the cluster of cells become a fetus, since you seem to want define when life begins. And at what point does the fetus become human? And at what point does the human become 'salvageable' and capable of thinking for itself? It is a cluster of cells. human cells or otherwise, it is nothing more than a cluster of cells. And I could give a fuck about it at that point.


14 year olds.....;
um, most states require parental consent of almost anything involving a 14 year old.

But since you brought it up......the decisions is between the patient and the doctor. so the question is NOT abortion, the question is whether or not a 14 year year can legally discuss medical issues with their doctor and them make informed decisions.

In some cases, yes they can, in some cases, i am sure they cannot.

Now your point is again.....? Cause I missed it somewhere in the rant about cells in a dish being being fetus's and so on

[billvon 3,009]

>If a 14 year old wants a tonsillectomy, they have to have parental consent.... so
>why not require parental consent for a 14 year old to have an abortion?

Probably because:

1) Parents don't tend to beat or kill their children when they find out they have tonsillitis

2) Girls don't try to remove their own tonsils if appropriate care is denied to them out of fear of parental notification

[rushmc 23]

Quote

At what point does the cluster of cells become a fetus, since you seem to want define when life begins. And at what point does the fetus become human? And at what point does the human become 'salvageable' and capable of thinking for itself? It is a cluster of cells. human cells or otherwise, it is nothing more than a cluster of cells. And I could give a fuck about it at that point.


14 year olds.....;
um, most states require parental consent of almost anything involving a 14 year old.

But since you brought it up......the decisions is between the patient and the doctor. so the question is NOT abortion, the question is whether or not a 14 year year can legally discuss medical issues with their doctor and them make informed decisions.

In some cases, yes they can, in some cases, i am sure they cannot.

Now your point is again.....? Cause I missed it somewhere in the rant about cells in a dish being being fetus's and so on

Cool
You think parents should not have anything to do with their young children

what have you got to hide?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>If a 14 year old wants a tonsillectomy, they have to have parental consent.... so
>why not require parental consent for a 14 year old to have an abortion?

Probably because:

1) Parents don't tend to beat or kill their children when they find out they have tonsillitis

2) Girls don't try to remove their own tonsils if appropriate care is denied to them out of fear of parental notification

Same for you

what a fucked up position

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

Cool
You think parents should not have anything to do with their young children

what have you got to hide?

where did I say that? i actually asked the question, did not 'give the answer'

Once again you attempt to 'win your argument' by changing my words into something convenient to you.

[champu 1]

Quote

Quote

>If a 14 year old wants a tonsillectomy, they have to have parental consent.... so
>why not require parental consent for a 14 year old to have an abortion?

Probably because:

1) Parents don't tend to beat or kill their children when they find out they have tonsillitis

2) Girls don't try to remove their own tonsils if appropriate care is denied to them out of fear of parental notification

Same for you

what a fucked up position

I would write a response to this reaction to the point Bill brought up, but I already did years ago when someone flipped out when I brought up the same point. So I'll just link to it.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

Cool
You think parents should not have anything to do with their young children

what have you got to hide?

where did I say that? i actually asked the question, did not 'give the answer'

Once again you attempt to 'win your argument' by changing my words into something convenient to you.

You have to forgive...there does seem to be a disconect. There is little to no comprehension of anyone other than those in management who put out their love of coal and polution edicts by denying any form of climate change is their fault... with a dash of big bug brain Lush LameBarf thrown in

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Quote

>If a 14 year old wants a tonsillectomy, they have to have parental consent.... so
>why not require parental consent for a 14 year old to have an abortion?

Probably because:

1) Parents don't tend to beat or kill their children when they find out they have tonsillitis

2) Girls don't try to remove their own tonsils if appropriate care is denied to them out of fear of parental notification

Same for you

what a fucked up position

Are you on drugs?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rushmc 23]

[Probably because:

1) Parents don't tend to beat or kill their children when they find out they have tonsillitis

2) Girls don't try to remove their own tonsils if appropriate care is denied to them out of fear of parental notification

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

At what point does the cluster of cells become a fetus, since you seem to want define when life begins

The fetal stage commences at the beginning of the 9th week. And we have already agreed on what "life" is... You admitted at bacteria is alive.

Quote

And at what point does the fetus become human?

Being a fetus is one stage of HUMAN development. Just like infancy, adolescence and old age.

Quote

Now your point is again.....?

You must be trying to miss it, or are you are that confused all the time?

Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult... etc are all STAGES of a human life. You seem to be fine with killing a human up to the point it passes out of a vagina.

Quote

Cause I missed it somewhere in the rant about cells in a dish being being fetus's and so on

Hah, the only rant here is from you.... I guess this is what you do when you run out of intelligent debate tactics.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

Probably because:

So, instead of punishing the crimes, you want to remove the parents rights from the equation?

And if you cannot tell the difference between an abortion and a tonsillectomy.... That explains a bunch.

[billvon 3,009]

>So, instead of punishing the crimes . . .

Nope. We should punish the crimes.

>you want to remove the parents rights from the equation?

If it comes right down to it, I support the daughters right to not be killed over the parents right to be informed. In an ideal world, of course, parents should be informed _and_ children should not be beaten or killed.

>And if you cannot tell the difference between an abortion and a tonsillectomy

And you think that making a phone call to a parent is the same as the murder of a child, using the same asinine logic.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

If it comes right down to it, I support the daughters right to not be killed over the parents right to be informed.

And would you support the right of a child to get a breast enhancement without parental consent? Have a tooth pulled? Get a tattoo?

Quote

And you think that making a phone call to a parent is the same as the murder of a child, using the same asinine logic.

I never said that.. YOU are the one claiming things are different. I think that medical procedures should require parental consent.

[billvon 3,009]

>And would you support the right of a child to get a breast enhancement
>without parental consent?

If there were a history of children being killed when their parents were notified, then it would be worth considering. However, I have not heard of any such instances. Have you?

>I never said that.

And I never said abortions were anything like tonsillectomies. Touche.

[DaVinci 0]

Quote

And I never said abortions were anything like tonsillectomies.

You have claimed one should require parental consent and one should not... Touche.

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

The fetal stage commences at the beginning of the 9th week. And we have already agreed on what "life" is... You admitted at bacteria is alive.

bacteria is alive, that does not make it 'life' in the context that you seem to contend that it is worth saving at any cost and legally punishing anyone who should harm said life.

I thought you were smarter than that - to actually know what you yourself said and in what context you said it.

Quote

You seem to be fine with killing a human up to the point it passes out of a vagina.

No at all, I already stated my reply to that - you missed it.

[billvon 3,009]

>You have claimed one should require parental consent and one should not... Touche.

Indeed. You have just proven that your bizarre leaps of logic make no sense. At least we can agree on that.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Quote

And I never said abortions were anything like tonsillectomies.

You have claimed one should require parental consent and one should not... Touche.

Wait...ummm...Huh?!?!? WHAT?????

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[VincePetaccio 0]

Quote

I'm trying to understand why folks think that the immediate results of an egg and a sperm uniting are a human being?

I don't. I really, really don't. I don't think abortion is a great idea, but emphatically think it should be legal, particularly in the first 4 months or so. Yes, 4.

But I'm interested in why people think it is a full-on human being. But reasons, not just assertions.

Wendy P.

As soon as the two meet, they form a unique piece of life, that is NOT the same as the parent.

The zygote presents meeting all seven traits of the biological definition of life:

1. Homeostasis- Zygotes are able to regulate their internal environment within their own external environment (remember that "internal" and "external" are relative terms).

2. Organization- A developing zygote displays high levels of developmental organization. Doesn't take much explanation.

3. Metabolism- The zygote is able to metabolize substrates to create energy and lyse the resulting products.

4. Growth- Again, pretty straight forward.

5. Adaptation- The developing zygote is able to adapt to changes in its environment. Consider the situation of twins, in which two zygotes must compete for physical space and resources, or changes in pH in the uterus.

6. Response to stimuli- A zygote will respond to stimuli (primarily chemical in the early stages), and a fetus will respond physically to physical stimuli.

7. Reproduction- Each cell in the newly formed zygote is able to reproduce (otherwise the zygote would not become a fetus). This blows a bit of a hole in the idea that birth defines the creation of a human- a newborn baby is not able to reproduce. Nor are the germ cells that must meet in order to form the zygote. Therefore, it is the joining of the sperm and the egg that complete the biological definition of life.

In terms of uniqueness, it is not until the sperm meets the egg that a unique set of DNA is formed in the new zygote.

Take it or leave it, whatever your stance on abortion or stem cell research, I'd say this is a fairly strong case for calling a zygote (or some later developmental stage) a human.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[DanG 1]

Quote

7. Reproduction- Each cell in the newly formed zygote is able to reproduce (otherwise the zygote would not become a fetus). This blows a bit of a hole in the idea that birth defines the creation of a human- a newborn baby is not able to reproduce. Nor are the germ cells that must meet in order to form the zygote. Therefore, it is the joining of the sperm and the egg that complete the biological definition of life.

Reproduction in this context does not mean cellular division, it means the ability to produce another unique individual.

Furthermore, you're taking the definition of life completely out of context. That definition is properly used to determine if a set of organisms is alive, not a particular individual. If it were used to determine the status of each individual, we would not consider sterile men or women alive, since they lack the ability to reproduce. Using your definition, a human kidney is alive, and therefore removing a kidney is the same as abortion.

And finally, no one is disputing the idea that the zygote is composed of living cells. The question is whether the zygote is a separate human being endowed with all the same rights as a fully formed human.

- Dan G

[VincePetaccio 0]

Quote

Reproduction in this context does not mean cellular division, it means the ability to produce another unique individual.

By this definition, no single-cell organism reproducing asexually (or ANY organism reproducing asexually) would be considered to be "alive."

Again, I'm not really advocating for any stance here... just trying to answer the OP's question.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[DanG 1]

No, you're missing the point. A single cell organism dividing and each one going its own way is reproduction. It has made a new organism. A cell within a larger organism dividing to grow new tissue is not reproducing.

I never said you were advancing a position. I'm just pointing out that your answer is incorrect.

- Dan G