Future of nuke power in the US

[billvon 3,030]

>Not including defects in children and cancers.

True. However, the number of children exposed to radiation due to the radioactive waste from coal power plants far exceeds that. Coal power plants put tons of radioactive waste in the air every year; even here in the US, the particulate pollution from coal plants (including the heavy metal/nuclear portion) kills about 20,000 people a year.

So while nuclear power is far from ideal, it's one of the lesser evils.

[billvon 3,030]

>Might be a dumb question, but.... they're already running steam turbines for
>power generation, right? Why not have a tap off that for their own cooling
>pumps?

Running the plant in its normal operating mode requires a lot of power and requires 99% of the plant to be functioning. In general when the reactor is shut down there is no system available that can take the cooler and/or lower pressure steam and use it to run anything. (And I would guess that between the earthquake and the approaching tsunami no one was thinking "let's keep the reactor up and running.")

[billvon 3,030]

>the subsidies should be cut from the commercial side and made available
>to homeowners in an effort to reduce the load on the grid.

They are.

(Remhwa sez)

>force the solar panel companies to improve the technology so they can fairly
>compete in the market with product affordable without robbing Peter to assist
>Paul in purchasing these things

"Force the solar companies?" Send some goons over perhaps? "Hey, Obama wantz yez ta get dat solar technology all spiffed up, mebbe you do dat and we don't have any accidents, ya know."

I think the ideal way to do that is to create an artificial demand (i.e. those subsidies) so that companies know they will have a market if they improve the technology.

>this just delays the introduction of affordable solar panels - why make them
>cheaper when the government can artificially jack up the price?

Well, given that all those subsidies (mainly Japan and Germany rather than the US) have resulted in sub-$1 solar panels, I think we have pretty good evidence that subsidies are artificially _reducing_ prices right now.

[rehmwa 2]

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>"Force the solar companies?" Send some goons over perhaps?

I think the ideal way to do that is to create an artificial demand (i.e. those subsidies)

Force - Market forces (how did you come up with "goons"?)

you keep writing "artificial" = if you don't see the problem with that all by itself (or the fact that those subsidies have to be paid for by people, not just the obscure government), we'll continue to politely disagree on it (or I'll be polite and you can if you like)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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The events in Japan will have totally unwarrated negative consequences.

This. The US *should* be investing much more heavily in nuclear energy, however Hollywood and events like this have people far more timid than they should be. The number of lives lost and environmental impacts of coal and petroleum power production don't seem to affect people near so much.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[quade 4]

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The events in Japan will have totally unwarrated negative consequences.

This. The US *should* be investing much more heavily in nuclear energy, however Hollywood and events like this have people far more timid than they should be. The number of lives lost and environmental impacts of coal and petroleum power production don't seem to affect people near so much.

Blues,
Dave

Yeah, because we all know "Hollywood" runs things and have always gotten their way when it comes to issues. Let's completely forget Reagan came from Hollywood and was the chief spokesman for GE for decades. Let's also forget that Disney introduced the vast majority of baby boomers to safe, clean nuclear power in "Our Friend the Atom."

(sigh)

What halted the advancement of nuclear energy in the US has far less to do with "Hollywood" than it does with Three Mile Island.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DanG 1]

I took him to mean Hollywood disaster movies.

"Relax, you'll live longer."

- Dan G

[livendive 8]

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The events in Japan will have totally unwarrated negative consequences.

This. The US *should* be investing much more heavily in nuclear energy, however Hollywood and events like this have people far more timid than they should be. The number of lives lost and environmental impacts of coal and petroleum power production don't seem to affect people near so much.

Blues,
Dave

Yeah, because we all know "Hollywood" runs things and have always gotten their way when it comes to issues. Let's completely forget Reagan came from Hollywood and was the chief spokesman for GE for decades. Let's also forget that Disney introduced the vast majority of baby boomers to safe, clean nuclear power in "Our Friend the Atom."

(sigh)

It's the perception that nuclear power = 3 headed freaks of nature and superhuman villains that I blame on Hollywood. Silly? Sure. But having gotten emails from my mom asking if I'm ok because someone found a radioactively contaminated rabbit, and a 5 AM phone call from her after she dreamt that I was embroiled in a Silkwood-like fiasco...yeah, the power of suggestion won in this case. The American people are bamboozled on the true risks of nuclear power.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[virgin-burner 1]

whenever i hear politicians talk about that issue i cant help myself but think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/user/sorrowman2#p/u/7/92d1xtjXf8E

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[quade 4]

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It's the perception that nuclear power = 3 headed freaks of nature and superhuman villains that I blame on Hollywood. Silly? Sure. But having gotten emails from my mom asking if I'm ok because someone found a radioactively contaminated rabbit, and a 5 AM phone call from her after she dreamt that I was embroiled in a Silkwood-like fiasco...yeah, the power of suggestion won in this case. The American people are bamboozled on the true risks of nuclear power.

I think you're putting the blame on the wrong people.

I think it speaks more to the American public's ability to separate fact from fiction than anything else.

Tell me, do they also think Los Angeles is currently being attacked by space aliens?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[virgin-burner 1]

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The tsunami wiped those out.

yea, they have those about triple. and one that is so well protected that it probably could survive a nuclear strike. access is VERY limited to only a select few. you can control ALL major backup-systems in a limited way from those emergency-rooms..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[winsor 236]

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It's the perception that nuclear power = 3 headed freaks of nature and superhuman villains that I blame on Hollywood. Silly? Sure. But having gotten emails from my mom asking if I'm ok because someone found a radioactively contaminated rabbit, and a 5 AM phone call from her after she dreamt that I was embroiled in a Silkwood-like fiasco...yeah, the power of suggestion won in this case. The American people are bamboozled on the true risks of nuclear power.

I think you're putting the blame on the wrong people.

I think it speaks more to the American public's ability to separate fact from fiction than anything else.

Tell me, do they also think Los Angeles is currently being attacked by space aliens?

Do John Travolta, Tom Cruise and Kirstey Alley count?

[billvon 3,030]

>how did you come up with "goons"?

Sorry, was a joke.

>you keep writing "artificial" = if you don't see the problem with that all by
>itself . . .

It's not ideal; it's just better than the alternatives. Some alternatives:

1) Total libertarian. No EPA, no energy planning. We use oil until we run out, then we use coal, without mining or emissions regulation. If people die, their families can use the US justice system to sue the coal companies, and whoever has the better lawyer wins.

2) Authoritarian. The government says "thou shalt use solar" - and if you don't, you go to jail.

3) Laissez faire. Have some environmental regulations but don't get involved other than that. Solar never takes off, because cheaper forms of power create a barrier to entry for solar and other alternative sources.

4) Market influence. Use artificial means to create a market for solar until it's established, then remove the artificial means once they are economically viable.

And of course there are grades between the above. I think that using the market (via incentives etc) to accomplish the goal of cleaner independent power are the best of the above.

[livendive 8]

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What halted the advancement of nuclear energy in the US has far less to do with "Hollywood" than it does with Three Mile Island.

TMI is a perfect example of the Hollywood effect I'm referring to. Contrast and compare your perception of the incident at Three Mile Island with the actual number of lives lost as a result of it. More people have been killed from static electricity discharges while fueling their cars, but that doesn't sell as much advertising.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[quade 4]

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It's the perception that nuclear power = 3 headed freaks of nature and superhuman villains that I blame on Hollywood. Silly? Sure. But having gotten emails from my mom asking if I'm ok because someone found a radioactively contaminated rabbit, and a 5 AM phone call from her after she dreamt that I was embroiled in a Silkwood-like fiasco...yeah, the power of suggestion won in this case. The American people are bamboozled on the true risks of nuclear power.

I think you're putting the blame on the wrong people.

I think it speaks more to the American public's ability to separate fact from fiction than anything else.

Tell me, do they also think Los Angeles is currently being attacked by space aliens?

Do John Travolta, Tom Cruise and Kirstey Alley count?

Hey, the Thetans are the "good" aliens; aren't they?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

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What halted the advancement of nuclear energy in the US has far less to do with "Hollywood" than it does with Three Mile Island.

TMI is a perfect example of the Hollywood effect I'm referring to. Contrast and compare your perception of the incident at Three Mile Island with the actual number of lives lost as a result of it. More people have been killed from static electricity discharges while fueling their cars, but that doesn't sell as much advertising.

Is that "Hollywood" or "the news"?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[livendive 8]

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What halted the advancement of nuclear energy in the US has far less to do with "Hollywood" than it does with Three Mile Island.

TMI is a perfect example of the Hollywood effect I'm referring to. Contrast and compare your perception of the incident at Three Mile Island with the actual number of lives lost as a result of it. More people have been killed from static electricity discharges while fueling their cars, but that doesn't sell as much advertising.

Is that "Hollywood" or "the news"?

Same same these days.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[hokierower 0]

I agree Bill, the subsidies should be completely cut from the commercial side and applied to the residential side. Doing so will reduce the price of residential solar panels and make it financially feasible to install in places where it doesn't make sense to construct a solar farm. The effort is not to completely eliminate the need for power, but rather to reduce the quantity needed.

The Mojave Solar Park to be completed in 2011 will produce 553 MW, enough to power about 400,000 homes throughout Cali. It will cost $2 billion and will take up around 6,000 acres, or about 9 square miles.

On the other hand, in California there are 4 operating nuclear power units at the moment, all producing between than 1,050 & 1,100 MW all day, every day.

When you include the subsidies which lower the price of solar and wind power to put them on a even operating scale with nuclear, coal, & oil, the price for solar is even greater in the long run.

Renewable energy as a whole still is not cost efficient and the money is better spent on nuclear energy because we (the US) have a shitload of uranium under our feet and in theory and when used with the right reactors, it is a "renewable resource".

This is just my $0.02 so feel free to agree or disagree. I like debating this subject.

[Amazon 7]

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>Not including defects in children and cancers.

True. However, the number of children exposed to radiation due to the radioactive waste from coal power plants far exceeds that. Coal power plants put tons of radioactive waste in the air every year; even here in the US, the particulate pollution from coal plants (including the heavy metal/nuclear portion) kills about 20,000 people a year.

So while nuclear power is far from ideal, it's one of the lesser evils.

Carefull Bill...... you will have Mr Coal Plant apologist here calling you a liar with a post like that.

[rehmwa 2]

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>
3) Laissez faire. Have some environmental regulations but don't get involved other than that. Solar never takes off, because cheaper forms of power create a barrier to entry for solar and other alternative sources.

4) Market influence. Use artificial means to create a market for solar until it's established, then remove the artificial means once they are economically viable.
.

sure, you're #4

I'm #3, but you seriously mis-represented

#3 Market Forces at Work (without gov interference) - Have some environmental regulations but don't get involved other than that. Solar takes off as a cheaper alternative to fill the gap, and if it doesn't demonstrate as feasible, something even better came along to fill the market need.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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the subsidies should be ... applied to the residential side. Doing so will reduce the price of residential solar panels and make it financially feasible to install in places where it doesn't make sense to construct a solar farm..

no problem - I have some simple questions

so - which taxpayers will you steal from that don't get to afford their own solar panels, and which citizens will you 'subsidize' with that money so they can get the discount solar panels?

what's your selection criteria for the those that give up their money for food and education and housing vs those that get nifty discounts on those panels?

how is the money transferred, should the subsidized just go over to the others' houses and take their cars? or should it be something less obvious?


you might reduce the "price" of those solar panels, but you aren't reducing the COST - someone has to foot that bill too.......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,030]

>Solar takes off as a cheaper alternative to fill the gap

Are you equating cheap to good? While that's true from a purely economic perspective, from a societal position it often doesn't work well - because cost often does not factor in externalities. (i.e. the road salt vs, corrosion equation.)

[rehmwa 2]

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>Solar takes off as a cheaper alternative to fill the gap

Are you equating cheap to good?

I'll rephrase "Solar takes off as a cost effective alternative to fill the gap - after many options were explored"

I'm equating "affordable to the average guy" is good for something that needs to be used on a mass basis. I'm saying the market should find the solution, rather than be forced in a specific direction. Why is solar the holy grail - can you honestly say that all options will be researched if we subsidized a specific industry?

Are you equating non-practical as good?

the only thing gov and additional adminstrivia can do is get in the way
no matter how much we 'wish' it helps

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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>then remove the artificial means once they are economically viable.

oh, oh oh,,,,, here's another one


not a lot of subsidies ever seem to get removed - do today's solar subsidy programs have specific criteria for the cancellation of the program upon achievement of a certain level of technology efficiency?

that would be nice

I'm sure the year it's canceled, people would be happy to not get those subsidies on their purchase even though they had to pitch in the year before for their neighbor's panels.
It'll be as successful and popular as Cars for Clunkers!!!

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,030]

>I'm saying the market should find the solution . . .

I'd agree with that only in a market that accurately accounts for all costs, not just the immediate ones. Unfortunately that is often not the case. Tax breaks, tax increases etc are (imperfect) ways of adding that cost back in. I'd be all for a more straighforward way, but methods of accomplishing that (i.e. carbon trading) are even more hated.

>can you honestly say that all options will be researched if we subsidized
>a specific industry?

Nope. Can you honestly say that all options will be researched if we let the market decide everything? I would think no; indeed, I would think that a great many options would be completely ignored due to market entry barriers without the additional incentives.

>Are you equating non-practical as good?

Nope.

>the only thing gov and additional adminstrivia can do is get in the way
>no matter how much we 'wish' it helps

In this case I think we have a pretty clear case of how it, in fact, did help.