so the obvious question about the prospective government shutdown

[SivaGanesha 2]

It seems that in the event of a government shutdown, only "non-essential" workers will be asked to stay home. "Essential" workers will still need to come to work.

Isn't the obvious question here--why do we have any "non-essential" workers on the federal payroll being paid with taxpayer dollars (or, just to tell it like it is, borrowed dollars) in the first place?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kelpdiver 2]

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Isn't the obvious question here--why do we have any "non-essential" workers on the federal payroll being paid with taxpayer dollars (or, just to tell it like it is, borrowed dollars) in the first place?

?? Not really a serious question. Companies have a lot of non essential employees too. If the profits falter, they're the first to go. Massage therapists, community outreach, half of marketing, lobbyists, etc.

For a week, the IRS isn't essential. But we can't go the year without them. Same with INS, or national parks, which funny enough are about to hit their free admissions week. Could we strip any federal employees that deal with culture? Probably, but do you want a school or nation that does the 3Rs and ignores all art?

[billvon 2,989]

>why do we have any "non-essential" workers on the federal payroll being paid with
>taxpayer dollars (or, just to tell it like it is, borrowed dollars) in the first place?

Because some are not essential every day. You could shut down the CDC (or the FDA, or the NRC, or the NTSB, or the FAA outside of ATC) for two weeks without too much trouble. Shutting them down permanently would probably be a bad idea.

[ryoder 1,590]

Non-essential:
- TSA
- BATFE

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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?? Not really a serious question. Companies have a lot of non essential employees too. If the profits falter, they're the first to go. Massage therapists, community outreach, half of marketing, lobbyists, etc.

For a week, the IRS isn't essential. But we can't go the year without them. Same with INS, or national parks, which funny enough are about to hit their free admissions week. Could we strip any federal employees that deal with culture? Probably, but do you want a school or nation that does the 3Rs and ignores all art?

Basically you are saying there are two reasons an employee might be considered "non essential":

1. They are really a luxury and not really required for the organization to do its work.

2. Their work is more long term in nature and can be done without for a week or two, even though in the long term they are certainly essential.

I guess my basic point is that there should be NO employees in category 1 on the federal payroll, in good economic times or bad. If a private company is doing well, then they should have the luxury of hiring such people, though.

BTW by definition 2 the IRS may not be essential every week but they are certainly essential this week.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kelpdiver 2]

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Basically you are saying there are two reasons an employee might be considered "non essential":

I've offered you two as a starting point. It's not necessary comprehensive.

Do you need a passport this week? Probably can wait on that too.

Do we need the FDA to give us guidelines on eating? Perhaps not. But no guidelines could end up costing us more on health care. (Or less, if you are an Atkins devotee).

Do we need X to do Y? One person's "Hell Yeah!" is another persons "Fuck no!" Bill has written this on many occasions - one's man's special interest is another one's essential government service. And there are 310 million of us.

One thing is certain - all of the discretionary spending that the two parties are squabbling about is dwarfed by our spending on the 2.1 wars we're engaged in. Those wars and defense spending overall should be the first target for cuts.

[Amazon 7]

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Basically you are saying there are two reasons an employee might be considered "non essential":

I've offered you two as a starting point. It's not necessary comprehensive.

Do you need a passport this week? Probably can wait on that too.

Do we need the FDA to give us guidelines on eating? Perhaps not. But no guidelines could end up costing us more on health care. (Or less, if you are an Atkins devotee).

Do we need X to do Y? One person's "Hell Yeah!" is another persons "Fuck no!" Bill has written this on many occasions - one's man's special interest is another one's essential government service. And there are 310 million of us.

One thing is certain - all of the discretionary spending that the two parties are squabbling about is dwarfed by our spending on the 2.1 wars we're engaged in. Those wars and defense spending overall should be the first target for cuts.

by FAR the biggest amount of corporate welfare that the far right wing chickenhawks will defend to someone elses death. yeah.. that is not going away anytime ever.

[SStewart 13]

Back in 1995 both my wife and I were federal employees when the government shut down. We were both employed by the US Forest Service in primary fire fighting roles. Since it was December and Fire activity in the Northwest was low we were deemed un-essential and we were furloughed for 26 days. If it would have been the middle of summer we would have stayed on.

When it was over they gave us all back pay for the time we were off ( all government employees were paid) so we had a 26 day paid vacation and the whole debacle ended up costing US taxpayers an additional 1.5 billion with no work being done during this time.

The same thing will happen again if they shut down the government, it won't save any money and will actually cost us more and increase the debt. These freshman tea baggers don't seem to understand that.

If they are stupid enough to force a shutdown then they should all stop getting paid as well. If they want to put a couple million Americans out of work then they should join them in the unemployment lines.

Onward and Upward!

[billvon 2,989]

>1. They are really a luxury and not really required for the organization to do
>its work.

No. There are certainly useless people in government (as there are everywhere) but in general those people just get fired. (Or manage to hide their ineptitude well enough to not get fired for a while.)

>2. Their work is more long term in nature and can be done without for a week
>or two, even though in the long term they are certainly essential.

Yes.

[Southern_Man 0]

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If they are stupid enough to force a shutdown then they should all stop getting paid as well.

Legislators (and their staff) are definitely non-essential. Of course they will exempt themselves from the consequences of their own actions.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[seedy 0]

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These freshman tea baggers don't seem to understand that.

If they are stupid enough to force a shutdown then they should all stop getting paid as well. If they want to put a couple million Americans out of work then they should join them in the unemployment lines.

Why just blame the tea bag people? Even after the election, the Democrats had control of the House, Senate and Presidency till the end of the year. This is the budget that should have passed last year, but Pelosi chose not to bring a budget up. Why? Seems to me that they had a hand in engineering this crisis for political gain.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[SStewart 13]

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If they are stupid enough to force a shutdown then they should all stop getting paid as well.

Legislators (and their staff) are definitely non-essential. Of course they will exempt themselves from the consequences of their own actions.

Exactly! They want to shut down the government?
THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT!!!

They should be the first to lose their pay since the can't do their job and produce a budget.

Onward and Upward!

[airdvr 210]

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by FAR the biggest amount of corporate welfare that the far right wing chickenhawks will defend to someone elses death. yeah.. that is not going away anytime ever.

Why is it that all of the Chickenhawks in your world are rightwing?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kelpdiver 2]

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Why just blame the tea bag people? Even after the election, the Democrats had control of the House, Senate and Presidency till the end of the year. This is the budget that should have passed last year, but Pelosi chose not to bring a budget up. Why?

The GOP would not permit a lame duck Democratic majority to pass anything of significance in that two month interval. It's inappropriate for the departing power to even try.

[Andy9o8 2]

I don't understand why the concept of "non-essential employee" is so hard to grasp. The issue is the degree of a given job's criticality over the short run. There may be a few grey areas, but most are pretty obvious to most people.

[Amazon 7]

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by FAR the biggest amount of corporate welfare that the far right wing chickenhawks will defend to someone elses death. yeah.. that is not going away anytime ever.

Why is it that all of the Chickenhawks in your world are rightwing?

Who is it again who is always beating the drums in your world???

If you dig war... and killing... by all means.. sign up.. GO to WAR.... just do not blather on and on about how glorius it is.... and expect others to go in your place for all the conflicts your ilk stir up.

Usually the Chickenhawks.. seem to be too busy.. or too important.. or a bad knee... of a name some other bullshit maladay or have too big of a BUTT BOIL to actually follow thru.

[rushmc 23]

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These freshman tea baggers don't seem to understand that.

If they are stupid enough to force a shutdown then they should all stop getting paid as well. If they want to put a couple million Americans out of work then they should join them in the unemployment lines.

+1

It was their job to pass a budget back then

They knew the spending they wanted would not fly so they passed and now are trying to blame the other side

The Dems did not do their job when they controled the house

That job was to submit and pass a budget

They didnt

purposely

Why just blame the tea bag people? Even after the election, the Democrats had control of the House, Senate and Presidency till the end of the year. This is the budget that should have passed last year, but Pelosi chose not to bring a budget up. Why? Seems to me that they had a hand in engineering this crisis for political gain.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[seedy 0]

Quote

The GOP would not permit a lame duck Democratic majority to pass anything of significance in that two month interval. It's inappropriate for the departing power to even try.

Why didn't the Dems pass the budget before the election? Still smells like a con job on their part for political gain.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[Amazon 7]

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Quote

The GOP would not permit a lame duck Democratic majority to pass anything of significance in that two month interval. It's inappropriate for the departing power to even try.

Why didn't the Dems pass the budget before the election? Still smells like a con job on their part for political gain.

You really do not have a firm grasp of legislative history do you.??

[wayneflorida 0]

Quote

Back in 1995 both my wife and I were federal employees when the government shut down. We were both employed by the US Forest Service in primary fire fighting roles. Since it was December and Fire activity in the Northwest was low we were deemed un-essential and we were furloughed for 26 days. If it would have been the middle of summer we would have stayed on.

When it was over they gave us all back pay for the time we were off ( all government employees were paid) so we had a 26 day paid vacation and the whole debacle ended up costing US taxpayers an additional 1.5 billion with no work being done during this time.

The same thing will happen again if they shut down the government, it won't save any money and will actually cost us more and increase the debt. These freshman tea baggers don't seem to understand that.

If they are stupid enough to force a shutdown then they should all stop getting paid as well. If they want to put a couple million Americans out of work then they should join them in the unemployment lines.

Yes, I remember the government workers on the news saying they couldn't buy Christmas presents,
boo-hoo.
Whenever the government has shutdown in the past the workers end up getting their pay. Of course that news isn't on at 5 oclock.

It's just a game which party can get a few points up in the polls.

[airdvr 210]

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by FAR the biggest amount of corporate welfare that the far right wing chickenhawks will defend to someone elses death. yeah.. that is not going away anytime ever.

Why is it that all of the Chickenhawks in your world are rightwing?

Who is it again who is always beating the drums in your world???

If you dig war... and killing... by all means.. sign up.. GO to WAR.... just do not blather on and on about how glorius it is.... and expect others to go in your place for all the conflicts your ilk stir up.

Usually the Chickenhawks.. seem to be too busy.. or too important.. or a bad knee... of a name some other bullshit maladay or have too big of a BUTT BOIL to actually follow thru.

And it's your contention that it's exclusively rightwingers?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

by FAR the biggest amount of corporate welfare that the far right wing chickenhawks will defend to someone elses death. yeah.. that is not going away anytime ever.

Why is it that all of the Chickenhawks in your world are rightwing?

Who is it again who is always beating the drums in your world???

If you dig war... and killing... by all means.. sign up.. GO to WAR.... just do not blather on and on about how glorius it is.... and expect others to go in your place for all the conflicts your ilk stir up.

Usually the Chickenhawks.. seem to be too busy.. or too important.. or a bad knee... of a name some other bullshit maladay or have too big of a BUTT BOIL to actually follow thru.

And it's your contention that it's exclusively rightwingers?

Well it sure as hell aint hippies.. since they seem to not want war so much as do your fellow travellers out there on the far right that continuely want to nuke this group or that.. or want to go kick ass here and there. All that sabre rattlin... is pretty meaningless with those plastic sabers that are wielded so well by the Dan Quayles and Dick Cheneys in their youth.

[wmw999 2,439]

Each one is hoping to tar the others with the brush. It's apparently business as usual not to finish the budget right away, and pass continuing resolutions.

However, with the large change in congress's makeup coming in, I think it would have behooved them to work a little harder at least during hte lame duck session. Of course, if a budget had passed then, there would have been an incredibly amount of hollering about its having been rammed through.

There's plenty of tar to go around.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Sapphire 0]

Actually, this affects a LOT of people you may not be thinking about! I work for a govt contractor and we got our furlough notices early to prepare us. Basically, we are non-essential: if they can't get paid by the govt they won't be paying us.

I won't get paid for any time I don't work retroactively or not - so I guess thankfully it's not Christmas time - but then, boo hooo me, eh?

"One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar" ~ Helen Keller

[Andy9o8 2]

Here are some examples of what would be open or closed, depending on how essential it is:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2011/04/politics/interactive.govt.shutdown.list/index.html?hpt=T2