"Leading Atheist Publishes Secular Bible" - WTF?!

[Guest]

I liked reading some of the comments following this CNN story, namely,

"'Who' says it's 'the right thing to do?' In Nazi Germany the public supported Hitler. Thus, to them, it was 'the right thing to do'. On what basis do we judge right and wrong? Don't say society, because I just demonstrated a case where society was blatantly wrong."

Atheists argue for "morality" as though it somehow stands on its own, yet this is blatantly false. If one subscribes to "Natural Law", then one speaks of Darwin, e.g., "survival of the fittest", which works at the street level as well as the national level (just look at Pakistan).

Our laws, our so-called "moral code" derive from Judeo-Christian tradition, warts and all.

What would atheists substitute if these laws derived from religious tradition are therefore unacceptable, as they somehow always seem to be?

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 2,990]

>Atheists argue for "morality" as though it somehow stands on its own, yet this is
>blatantly false.

?? Atheist societies have morality just as religious societies do. Religion is an attempt to provide a defensible justification for morality, not vice versa.

[jakee 1,489]

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Our laws, our so-called "moral code" derive from Judeo-Christian tradition, warts and all.

No they don't.

That claim is worse than stupid, it's lazy.




(And as an aside, the juxtaposition of your last two threads is hilarious. Seriously, it could not be more perfect.)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Our laws, our so-called "moral code" derive from Judeo-Christian tradition, warts and all.

uh, those stem from the Greeks, the Romans, and the English. Only the last one was Christian, and they were so moral that they created a new Christian sect in order to get a divorce.

[skinnay 0]

If this book comes as a shock to anyone, its probably because you've never picked up a god damn philosophy book in your life

[Guest]

Quote

>Atheists argue for "morality" as though it somehow stands on its own, yet this is
>blatantly false.

?? Atheist societies have morality just as religious societies do. Religion is an attempt to provide a defensible justification for morality, not vice versa.

And your basis for this is....?

So "morality" is purely a social construct, and has no basis in religion? That seems to imply that it's a temporary, artificial construct as well, and is only here when it is convenient, as opposed to a universal truth.

In other words, "morality" is what we decide it is, and it is therefore subject to change, on a whim, as it were. Am I correct?

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[david3 0]

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Quote

>Atheists argue for "morality" as though it somehow stands on its own, yet this is
>blatantly false.

?? Atheist societies have morality just as religious societies do. Religion is an attempt to provide a defensible justification for morality, not vice versa.

And your basis for this is....?

So "morality" is purely a social construct, and has no basis in religion? That seems to imply that it's a temporary, artificial construct as well, and is only here when it is convenient, as opposed to a universal truth.

In other words, "morality" is what we decide it is, and it is therefore subject to change, on a whim, as it were. Am I correct?

mh
.

Isn't religion temporary therefore subject to change, on a whim, as it were?

[billvon 2,990]

>And your basis for this is....?

The fact that atheist societies, both ancient and modern, have moral standards equivalent to - in some cases superior to - religious societies.

>So "morality" is purely a social construct, and has no basis in religion?

Well, it is literally a social construct since society both creates and enforces its own version of morality. However, it is based on more than objective rational thought. It is based in our very makeup; we have inborn, instinctive drives for justice, fairness and compassion as well as the drives for competitiveness, greed and selfishness. These create tensions in people when they see others being exploited or oppressed. A system of morality in which justice and fairness can be expressed while allowing for greed, selfishness etc is therefore more acceptable to people, regardless of their religious beliefs.

As an example - Epicurus was an atheist Greek philosopher. He was one of the first Greeks to admit women and slaves into schools of any kind, in contrast to his countrymen who excluded women from schools based on religious considerations. He taught that friendship was to be valued highly, but excesses of love and lust ended up causing pain and should be avoided.

Some of his core beliefs:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, agreeing 'neither to harm nor be harmed,' and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life."

>That seems to imply that it's a temporary, artificial construct as well, and is only here
>when it is convenient, as opposed to a universal truth.

Parts of it are certainly temporary. Compare the morality of slave ownership in the 1700's and modern day. However, it's not artificial, since it's based on our innate, inborn drives. (Many people call these behavioral drives a "conscience," although they are not really the same.)

>In other words, "morality" is what we decide it is, and it is therefore subject to
>change, on a whim, as it were. Am I correct?

Well, you could try to change it (and people often do.) But if you create a morality that is far out of whack from what people's drives tell them to do, then expect it to not last very long.

[jakee 1,489]

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So "morality" is purely a social construct, and has no basis in religion? That seems to imply that it's a temporary, artificial construct as well, and is only here when it is convenient, as opposed to a universal truth.

It is connected to religion, in that religion attempts to make morality its business, but no, morality is not based on religion.

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In other words, "morality" is what we decide it is, and it is therefore subject to change, on a whim, as it were. Am I correct?

It depends on how you define morality, first of all. Get that out of the way then we can talk about how to derive it.

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And your basis for this is....?

And what's your basis for your absurd thesis?

Pop quiz: How many of the Ten Commandments are enshrined in law, and of the ones that are, which do you think we wouldn't have without the aid of the bibble?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[champu 1]

Here are some posts I've made over the last few years on the topic...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3627701#3627701

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3706886#3706886

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3020612#3020612

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3021988#3021988

[jclalor 12]

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***

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I liked reading some of the comments following this CNN story, namely,

"'Who' says it's 'the right thing to do?' In Nazi Germany the public supported Hitler. Thus, to them, it was 'the right thing to do'. On what basis do we judge right and wrong? Don't say society, because I just demonstrated a case where society was blatantly wrong."

Atheists argue for "morality" as though it somehow stands on its own, yet this is blatantly false. If one subscribes to "Natural Law", then one speaks of Darwin, e.g., "survival of the fittest", which works at the street level as well as the national level (just look at Pakistan).

Our laws, our so-called "moral code" derive from Judeo-Christian tradition, warts and all.

What would atheists substitute if these laws derived from religious tradition are therefore unacceptable, as they somehow always seem to be?

mh
.

Do you want all the the morality and ethics of the bible or do you just want to hand pick the ones you want to keep. I know you must not want to examine ALL the laws of the OT and the NT.

[kallend 2,026]

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Quote

So "morality" is purely a social construct, and has no basis in religion? That seems to imply that it's a temporary, artificial construct as well, and is only here when it is convenient, as opposed to a universal truth.

It is connected to religion, in that religion attempts to make morality its business, but no, morality is not based on religion.

Quote

In other words, "morality" is what we decide it is, and it is therefore subject to change, on a whim, as it were. Am I correct?

It depends on how you define morality, first of all. Get that out of the way then we can talk about how to derive it.

Quote

And your basis for this is....?

And what's your basis for your absurd thesis?

Pop quiz: How many of the Ten Commandments are enshrined in law, and of the ones that are, which do you think we wouldn't have without the aid of the bibble?

The Ten Commandments predate Judaism. They are essentially a rip-off of Chapter 125 of the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Coreece 190]

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Our laws, our so-called "moral code" derive from Judeo-Christian tradition, warts and all.

No they don't.

hmmm...we may agree here.

I once read that our morals just simply coincide with the Bible.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Coreece 190]

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The Ten Commandments predate Judaism. They are essentially a rip-off of Chapter 125 of the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead.

I've always found it interesting how Judiasm was very similar to Egyptian rituals...

It's like God gave them a list of rules that the Jews would understand from their extensive stay in Egypt and then slowly demolished that system as if it were useless...

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[jakee 1,489]

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I've always found it interesting how Judiasm was very similar to Egyptian rituals...

It's like God gave them a list of rules that the Jews would understand from their extensive stay in Egypt and then slowly demolished that system as if it were useless...

Well now that's just the great thing about believing in something omnipotent, isn't it? It covers every single possible scenario, no matter how obvious an alternative to divine intervention there is.

The Ten Commandments are a ground breaking new set of rules with no precedent anywhere else? "Well of course, it makes perfect sense He'd do it that way!"

The Ten Commandments are ripped off from an older, neighbouring culture? "Well of course, it makes perfect sense He'd do it that way!"

The Ten Commandments were actually passed to Moses by Martians who'd taken an interest in the development of Earthling civilisation? "Well of course, it makes perfect sense He'd do it that way!"

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

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So "morality" is purely a social construct, and has no basis in religion? That seems to imply that it's a temporary, artificial construct as well, and is only here when it is convenient, as opposed to a universal truth.

In other words, "morality" is what we decide it is, and it is therefore subject to change, on a whim, as it were. Am I correct?

mh
.

Isn't that pretty much the way liberal left views society. Everything is in flux, dynamic and depends on the whims of the intellectual elite.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Coreece 190]

Actually, just to clarify...I wasn't nesecarily talking about the ten commands specifically.

The prof's statement just reminded me of a casual observation I made about Judaism several years ago.

It's really not a big deal.

Not sure if this is a good thing, but it's actually fun to see you get your panties all mixed up over something as simple as faith...it's like an added bonus watching you sort them out.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[winsor 236]

The Ten Commandments predate Judaism. They are essentially a rip-off of Chapter 125 of the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead.

[billvon 2,990]

>Isn't that pretty much the way liberal left views society. Everything is in flux, dynamic
>and depends on the whims of the intellectual elite.

Everything _is_ in flux in our society - something I am sure you are grateful for. I am sure you would not enjoy living in a society where slavery was common, women were treated as property and scientists could be executed for believing that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

[RonD1120 62]

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>Isn't that pretty much the way liberal left views society. Everything is in flux, dynamic
>and depends on the whims of the intellectual elite.

Everything _is_ in flux in our society - something I am sure you are grateful for. I am sure you would not enjoy living in a society where slavery was common, women were treated as property and scientists could be executed for believing that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

And, therein lies the need for a spiritual morality to create a balance with existential angst, alienation, absurdity, boredom and despair which leads to the lack of self-restraint.

In other words, if the individual is willing to accept total consequential responsibility, then he is free to do whatever he desires.

Liberal left claims only smart people should make the rules. Conservative right claims only rich people should make the rules.

Christians say God makes the rules and you will be judged. Will judgement find your name in the Lamb's Book of Life?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Guest]

Quote

>Isn't that pretty much the way liberal left views society. Everything is in flux, dynamic
>and depends on the whims of the intellectual elite.

Everything _is_ in flux in our society - something I am sure you are grateful for. I am sure you would not enjoy living in a society where slavery was common, women were treated as property and scientists could be executed for believing that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

Sounds like the Middle East today, almost.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 2,990]

>And, therein lies the need for a spiritual morality to create a balance with existential
>angst, alienation, absurdity, boredom and despair which leads to the lack of
>self-restraint.

Sounds like you could be quoting Epicurus!

I agree, there needs to be a morality based on "spirit" - on what we feel is right after long contemplation, rather than what we feel is right in the heat of the moment or after considering how much money we can make. That spirituality is innate in all people, but is hard to hear sometimes.

Scientific types will label those feelings as behaviors provided by evolution, ones that help us live and reproduce more effectively in groups of people, and ones we share with other animals. Religious types will label them as God-given feelings. But in either case they form the basis of most of our decisions on morality.


>Liberal left claims only smart people should make the rules. Conservative right claims
>only rich people should make the rules. Christians say God makes the rules and you
>will be judged.

And some think that we should make our own rules, based on what we think is right after long contemplation, observation and learning. And then live them.

[billvon 2,990]

>Sounds like the Middle East today, almost.

And here you are, arguing that religion provides a more superior base for morality than atheism! Ironic, ain't it.

[Guest]

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>Sounds like the Middle East today, almost.

And here you are, arguing that religion provides a more superior base for morality than atheism! Ironic, ain't it.

And once again, islam is a death-cult, not a religion.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[winsor 236]

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>Sounds like the Middle East today, almost.

And here you are, arguing that religion provides a more superior base for morality than atheism! Ironic, ain't it.

And once again, islam is a death-cult, not a religion.

mh
.

And that differs from the Cult of the Magic Jewish Zombie how, exactly?