DanG 1 #251 April 25, 2011 QuoteYou do realize that most of those guys died horribly rather than deny what they had seen and experienced? Now, Muslims fly into buildings for what they deeply believe but that is different. How is that different? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #252 April 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou do realize that most of those guys died horribly rather than deny what they had seen and experienced? Now, Muslims fly into buildings for what they deeply believe but that is different. How is that different? You left off the rest of my quote: "You do realize that most of those guys died horribly rather than deny what they had seen and experienced? Now, Muslims fly into buildings for what they deeply believe but that is different. It would be very difficult indeed to find someone willing to suffer and die the kind of deaths the Apostles did for what they knew to be false (just to further another false religion)." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #253 April 25, 2011 And how is that different? The Muslims don't think they are furthering a false religion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #254 April 25, 2011 QuoteAnd how is that different? The Muslims don't think they are furthering a false religion. That's right. I'm trying to show that it would be very unlikely that they would be willing to die if they knew it to be false. They completely believe in their cause. So did the Apostles. The difference is that the Apostles were eye-witnesses. And...they died tortuous deaths because they would not deny what they saw. Also, flying into a building is instantaneous and painless. Crucifixion is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #255 April 25, 2011 Not very convincing. They were not first nor the last to die tortuous deaths because of what they believed in and that does not lend any more credibility to the Christian mythology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #256 April 25, 2011 QuoteNot very convincing. They were not first nor the last to die tortuous deaths because of what they believed in and that does not lend any more credibility to the Christian mythology. If you "knew" something was not true, would you be willing to be tortured and killed to further that falsehood? That's the key. Of course you might if you believed it. That happens all the time. But if you knew it was false? Goes to the credibility of the Apostle's stories. Then, consider the difference in what they were willing to endure for that cause (some requesting to be crucified upside down because they were unworthy to be put to death in the same way as the Savior.) And the fact that they actually saw what they were dying for. It is illogical to think that they would if they knew it was all a sham. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #257 April 25, 2011 All devout religious people "know" their belief is true no matter what they believe in. Doesn't make what they believe in to be true. Just like no matter how much you believe in your god doesn't make it any more real. There is no evidence to support your beliefs and if there were actual evidence then faith would not be necessary nor required to believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #258 April 25, 2011 QuoteAll devout religious people "know" their belief is true no matter what they believe in. Doesn't make what they believe in to be true. Just like no matter how much you believe in your god doesn't make it any more real. There is no evidence to support your beliefs and if there were actual evidence then faith would not be necessary nor required to believe. Not the same thing at all. You're refusing to see this from the point of view of the Apostles. Would they have done what they did if they KNEW the resurrection did not occur? I'd respect your intellectual honesty more if you just said you don't believe any of that occurred anyway but that it would be illogical for someone to voluntarily die for what he knew for a fact was a lie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #259 April 25, 2011 Just because they "KNEW" it to be true doesn't make it so. Plenty of people have died horrible deaths for what they believed in. Doesn't make what they believed in to be any more real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #260 April 25, 2011 QuoteJust because they "KNEW" it to be true doesn't make it so. Plenty of people have died horrible deaths for what they believed in. Doesn't make what they believed in to be any more real. Again....... ........ ..... wow!.......... THAT is not what I said. Refer to previous posts for clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #261 April 25, 2011 Quote Quote All devout religious people "know" their belief is true no matter what they believe in. Doesn't make what they believe in to be true. Just like no matter how much you believe in your god doesn't make it any more real. There is no evidence to support your beliefs and if there were actual evidence then faith would not be necessary nor required to believe. Not the same thing at all. You're refusing to see this from the point of view of the Apostles. Would they have done what they did if they KNEW the resurrection did not occur? I'd respect your intellectual honesty more if you just said you don't believe any of that occurred anyway but that it would be illogical for someone to voluntarily die for what he knew for a fact was a lie. I don't know what did or didn't actually happen back then. All we have regarding the apostles is what is written in the bible and there is no way to verify the accuracy of those accounts. Lots of people believe lots of different things with varying degrees of sincerity. The willingness of someone to die for their beliefs does not lend anymore credibility to their beliefs. You are basing your statements on the assumption that the bible is literally correct in regards to the accounts of the apostles. I don't share that assumption. Or I smell what you are stepping in, just don't share the belief that it smells good! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #262 April 25, 2011 QuoteYou are basing your statements on the assumption that the bible is literally correct in regards to the accounts of the apostles. I don't share that assumption. That is true...I do. But that is a shift from the question on your part. But...I respect that answer more than the previous ones. At least you admit (somewhat?) that you just don't believe it...but that is aside from the logic in my statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #263 April 25, 2011 People do all sorts of illogical things. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean they didn't do it. I don't know what the apostles did or didn't do. All we know today is what was written down. How accurate are those accounts? No one really knows, because they can not be verified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #264 April 25, 2011 QuoteAll devout religious people "know" their belief is true no matter what they believe in. Doesn't make what they believe in to be true. Just like no matter how much you believe in your god doesn't make it any more real. There is no evidence to support your beliefs and if there were actual evidence then faith would not be necessary nor required to believe. The Apostles witnessed Jesus perform miracles while he was alive. They witnessed Him after the resurrection. They had first hand personal experience. They had absolutely nothing to gain by perpetuating a false belief. They simply could not deny the truth and they died horribly for their conviction.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #265 April 25, 2011 Ah yes some more blind belief in the bible. Just because it was written doesn't make it so. Just like the Illiad and Odyssey or the Koran or any other really old writing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #266 April 25, 2011 I see that I replied to you too soon, before reading your later posts. I understand where you are coming from now. Linear adolescence compounded by myopic maturational experience. EFS, that is all there is.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heatmiser 0 #267 April 25, 2011 Does that mean that you are dismissing his opinions because of his age, that he's just not "mature" enough to understand? What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #268 April 25, 2011 There are many "non judeo-christian" societies in the world. How many of them encourage murder, theft, lying, etc? Our "moral compass" encourages an orderly society that facilitates the propogation of the species. What else would/should it do? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #269 April 25, 2011 I don't know how old he is. The Bible does not indicate an age limit on a rebellious mind set. Research indicates that rebellion is a normal aspect of the adolescent mind. When individuals allow themselves to experience broader social interactions they tend to become more mature. Maturation can certainly allow for difference of opinion. However, to blindly discount the basis of another's opinion because you don't believe it is the foundation of adolescent rebellion carried forth into adult life. We have a lot of that here.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #270 April 25, 2011 QuoteThere are many "non judeo-christian" societies in the world. How many of them encourage murder, theft, lying, etc? Our "moral compass" encourages an orderly society that facilitates the propogation of the species. What else would/should it do? Blues, Dave Romans 2:14-15 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #271 April 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteThere are many "non judeo-christian" societies in the world. How many of them encourage murder, theft, lying, etc? Our "moral compass" encourages an orderly society that facilitates the propogation of the species. What else would/should it do? Blues, Dave Romans 2:14-15 Director, Tech Pubs: “OK, we’re a religion. Gimme some text that says join us and obey our laws or be damned for all eternity” Tech writer: “Done! I took all the stuff that the species must do to survive, then added in some gobbledygook about food and sex to keep it interesting” Reviewer: “But, if that’s what humans are doing anyhow, where’s the compulsion to join us?” Tech writer: “That’s outside my paygrade” Director, Tech Pubs: “We’re on a deadline people! Emphasize the “join us” part and explain that obeying the laws “just because” won’t spare them eternal damnation!” Tech writer: “Done!” Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #272 April 25, 2011 QuoteI see that I replied to you too soon, before reading your later posts. I understand where you are coming from now. Linear adolescence compounded by myopic maturational experience. EFS, that is all there is. Ah yes resorting to insults when your faith has been challenged. Good luck with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #273 April 25, 2011 Using your logic, the faith of the 9-11 hijackers (and myriad other Muslim death-by-suicide actors) must have been even stronger than that of the Apostles. Modern day Muslims didn't witness any miracles or have personal contact with Mohammed, but were still willing to die for their beliefs. If you're going to continue with your logic, their williness to give their lives is even stronger evidence for the truth of the Koran than anything endured by the Apostles. Please note, I don't believe in either the Bible or the Koran. I also don't believe that the matryrdom of the Apostles can be used as evidence for anything they claimed to have witnessed. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #274 April 25, 2011 QuoteQuoteI see that I replied to you too soon, before reading your later posts. I understand where you are coming from now. Linear adolescence compounded by myopic maturational experience. EFS, that is all there is. Ah yes resorting to insults when your faith has been challenged. Good luck with that. My faith is not challenged.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #275 April 25, 2011 Right Then why resort to insults? I didn't insult you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
