jakee 1,489 #51 April 20, 2011 QuoteBut you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. No, that third thing doesn't tell you what to do: that third thing is you. And like Bill said, sometimes you do decide to help, sometimes you don't decide to help, sometimes you decide to make things worse.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #52 April 20, 2011 Quote>and there is the Moral Law of God (e.g. The Ten Commandments) which apply to us all.) I find it hard to believe that even devout Christians think that avoiding any kind of work on Sunday (including work done by animals) is part of basic morality. That is kind of a loaded question. If you're interested, this is a sermon by Dr. John MacArthur on the subject of the Sabbath. It is an excellent expository teaching on the subject. I think it will show you that it does apply to us. Just maybe not in the way you think. With the new covenant in Jesus Christ, we are no longer under law but under grace. MacArthur really digs into the history of it, who it was addressed to in the OT, who it was not addressed to in the OT, how it most definitely applies to Christians now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8GEMWSdkNQ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #53 April 20, 2011 Your Youtube link is just one interpretation. Many people believe differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #54 April 20, 2011 Quote Your Youtube link is just one interpretation. Many people believe differently. I wish you'd watch it. I just did. It's very good. I learned some things about it that goes all the way back to Genesis. There's a lot to the Sabbath and the meaning behind it. Ever wonder why all of the Laws of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the NT except for the 4th? Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The OT Sabbath was a type/shadow of Christ in the NT. The Sabbath most definitely stands on its (His) own regardless of how we observe it and it applies to us all. You have two options. You either have to earn your righteousness on your own merit or you can rest in the Sabbath (Jesus). ...and that does not mean that now you have to postpone cutting the grass till Monday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #55 April 20, 2011 I can tell you not all christians share your view or the views in that video. There are no absolutes when it comes to morality. I have no interest in debating the fine points of christian mythology. My point is that your statement that there is a "Moral Law of God objective (and absolute)" is not true. Even among christians there is no consensus. What is and isn't moral is different from person to person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #56 April 20, 2011 And more rubbish ... Can you explain why God made a covenant with Abram who committed adultery with Hagar when do not commit adultery is one of the ten commandments?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #57 April 20, 2011 QuoteQuote>and there is the Moral Law of God (e.g. The Ten Commandments) which apply to us all.) I find it hard to believe that even devout Christians think that avoiding any kind of work on Sunday (including work done by animals) is part of basic morality. That is kind of a loaded question. If you're interested, this is a sermon by Dr. John MacArthur on the subject of the Sabbath. It is an excellent expository teaching on the subject. I think it will show you that it does apply to us. Just maybe not in the way you think. With the new covenant in Jesus Christ, we are no longer under law but under grace. MacArthur really digs into the history of it, who it was addressed to in the OT, who it was not addressed to in the OT, how it most definitely applies to Christians now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8GEMWSdkNQ The Mormons are the only ones I've seen that take the Sabbath seriously. Only Christians I mean - you then have Jews that do the same sort of restrictions on Fri nite-Sat nite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #58 April 20, 2011 QuoteI can tell you not all christians share your view or the views in that video. You don't have to tell him...the video itself explains that. Macarthur tends to do a great job of explaining opposing viewpoints on various topics and then gives his own argument. To be honest, I haven't seen anybody today come close to explaining scripture like he does. It's seems like 50% of evangelicals love him while the other half hate him... I finally watched Jesus camp today and I was in tears as to what was going on at the "Kids on Fire" camp in Devils Lake, North Dakota. (Go figure, eh?) What a bizzare disorganized convoluted mess of political propaganda mixed with a tiny bit a spiritual truth...A brilliant lie. Not once did I hear them teaching anything about scripture to those kids. It was just an orgasmic display of stubborness, hate and emotion. Right now, our biggest battle should be with our own evangelical church. We finally have the technology to explain the message all over the world, but we can't even agree as to what the message is... That Jesus Camp documentary really freaked me out, and that's why need people like Macarthur to explain scripture properly.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #59 April 20, 2011 QuoteAnd more rubbish ... Can you explain why God made a covenant with Abram who committed adultery with Hagar when do not commit adultery is one of the ten commandments? Can you explain how Abram would've known about the ten commandments?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #60 April 20, 2011 QuoteThe Mormons are the only ones I've seen that take the Sabbath seriously. Only Christians I mean - you then have Jews that do the same sort of restrictions on Fri nite-Sat nite. Well there are also the 7th day adventists, but that's all explained in the video...here's the transcript: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-379_Understanding-the-SabbathYour secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #61 April 20, 2011 Right and those people in Jesus camp absolutely believe that they are right and moral. The evanglicals believe they are right. Each christian group has their own reasoning as to why they are right and the others are wrong. How does anyone know what the proper explaination is of the scriptures is if no one can agree on anything? It's all so subjective. There is no way to define the correct interpretation of the bible. In fact from friends and people that I have met who consider themselves christian, they all just find a church that fits their personality and personal beliefs and go with it. Everything that I have seen about christianity shows that there are no absolutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #62 April 20, 2011 QuoteRight and those people in Jesus camp absolutely believe that they are right and moral. The evanglicals believe they are right. The people in Jesus camp are evangelicals. QuoteHow does anyone know what the proper explaination is of the scriptures is if no one can agree on anything? I'm asking people, primarily evangelicals to listen to the various arguments and choose the best one like with most issues in life. Many evangelicals to aren't exposed to people like MacArthur who've studied scripture for years and explain it for what it is within context, not to use it as a source to promote the prosperity gospel or as a means for political control to fight the Jihadists...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #63 April 20, 2011 I am sure not all evangelicals are like those people in that movie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #64 April 20, 2011 >>>and there is the Moral Law of God (e.g. The Ten Commandments) which apply to us all.) >I find it hard to believe that even devout Christians think that avoiding any kind of >work on Sunday (including work done by animals) is part of basic morality. >With the new covenant in Jesus Christ, we are no longer under law but under grace. OK. So it's not the Moral Law of God any more, because things change. Fair enough - but if you (or McArthur) can change laws, so can anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #65 April 20, 2011 QuoteAnd more rubbish ... Can you explain why God made a covenant with Abram who committed adultery with Hagar when do not commit adultery is one of the ten commandments? He didn't commit adultery with Hagar (Gen 16:3). But Abram had certainly been guilty of breaking the 2nd Commandment and worshiping false gods (Joshua 24:2,3). That's not the point, though. The point is that God established the covenant and God always keeps His promises. It wasn't like a contract that God made with Abram. A covenant is deeper than that. A contract can be broken if one party fails to meet his end of the bargain. Man continually fails to meet up with his side of the bargain. God, on the other hand, will follow through with His promise even if we fail to do so. God "chose" to work through Abram. Not the other way around. The covenant is intact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #66 April 20, 2011 Quote>>>and there is the Moral Law of God (e.g. The Ten Commandments) which apply to us all.) >I find it hard to believe that even devout Christians think that avoiding any kind of >work on Sunday (including work done by animals) is part of basic morality. >With the new covenant in Jesus Christ, we are no longer under law but under grace. OK. So it's not the Moral Law of God any more, because things change. Fair enough - but if you (or McArthur) can change laws, so can anyone else. I don't think you watched MacArthur's video because you completely missed the point. It's a shame because it's a very informative video. One should understand where the other is coming from in a discussion. Even if you don't agree with it. At least you can discuss intelligently on the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #67 April 20, 2011 Yeah, that's what I've been saying...but we still do share some beliefs. I consider those children true believers and it's just a shame that these kids are being lead by false ignorant teachers to fulfill their own lusts such as political dominace rather than to grow spiritually.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #68 April 20, 2011 Quote o that I would say that it doesn’t matter what he or I believes with regard to what we understand God’s moral precepts to be in order for them to be true. That’s what makes the Moral Law of God objective (and absolute). It stands on its own. In the 12th Century it was considered in accordance with your god's law to invade another country and slaughter its population, women and children included. In the 15th Century it was considered in accordance with your god's law to torture "heretics" to death, and/or burn them at the stake. Your god's law doesn't seem at all objective or absolute to me - it's whatever the priesthood says it is for their own convenience at any given time.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,489 #69 April 20, 2011 Quote Your god's law doesn't seem at all objective or absolute to me - it's whatever the priesthood says it is for their own convenience at any given time. And the other problem with the Moral Law being the third thing is one of regression - 'cos there have to be more than three things, right? Desire to do a good thing, desire not to do a good thing, and a voice telling us to do the good thing. But we don't always do the good thing. So there's another voice inside us, a fourth impulse, telling us to suppress the good desire. So how do we decide between the third and the fourth impulses? Well I suppose there must be a fifth impulse, telling us to suppress the fourth impulse telling us to suppress the good desire. But then to explain our bad actions we'd need a sixth....Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #70 April 20, 2011 Quoteit's whatever the priesthood says it is for their own convenience at any given time. Well, that's what they'd like to have you believe...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #71 April 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteit's whatever the priesthood says it is for their own convenience at any given time. Well, that's what they'd like to have you believe... well, is it more likely that God told the English to engage in the Crusades? Or is it more likely that they needed to trim down the number of lords to inherit property? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #72 April 21, 2011 QuoteIn the 12th Century it was considered in accordance with your god's law to invade another country and slaughter its population, women and children included. In the 15th Century it was considered in accordance with your god's law to torture "heretics" to death, and/or burn them at the stake. Your god's law doesn't seem at all objective or absolute to me - it's whatever the priesthood says it is for their own convenience at any given time. There was a reason for the Protestant Reformation. Sola Scriptura, sola fide. The church in Rome wasn't always apostate...but they are now...and they certainly do not represent the Church as a whole. The Priesthood is not the head of the Church. Jesus Christ is. What evil men do in the face of what is right does not discredit the standard. Everyone will be judged by God for what they have done...in the end. As for the rest, let's be sure to mention that the Crusades (not defending the atrocities but I'm sure they occurred on both sides) began because of Muslim aggression. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #73 April 21, 2011 Quote Quote Quote it's whatever the priesthood says it is for their own convenience at any given time. Well, that's what they'd like to have you believe... well, is it more likely that God told the English to engage in the Crusades? Or is it more likely that they needed to trim down the number of lords to inherit property? let's see.... The Catholic leadership obeying God.... Orrrrrr.... The Catholic leadership gaining money, power and control.... Hmmmm... Is this the million dollar question, I hope?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #74 April 21, 2011 QuoteLet's see.... The Catholic leadership obeying God.... Orrrrrr.... The Catholic leadership gaining money, power and control.... Hmmmm... Is this the million dollar question, I hope? I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 24 #75 April 21, 2011 You'd think atheists could come up with something new. Instead, the argument against always seems to lead to "Well, What about the Crusades and the Salem Witch Trials? That's why I can't believe. That will be a lame excuse when they stand before God and give an account. Not trying to minimize the wrongdoing, however, it's interesting to note that, as much attention that is brought to the Salem Trials, there were only about 20 executions. You'd think it was on par with the Holocaust. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
