"Leading Atheist Publishes Secular Bible" - WTF?!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don't know how old he is. The Bible does not indicate an age limit on a rebellious mind set. Research indicates that rebellion is a normal aspect of the adolescent mind. When individuals allow themselves to experience broader social interactions they tend to become more mature. Maturation can certainly allow for difference of opinion. However, to blindly discount the basis of another's opinion because you don't believe it is the foundation of adolescent rebellion carried forth into adult life.

From the atheist point of view, the immature thinker is the one that accepts the brainwashing they received from their parents and church in their childhood years and never challenges the lack of proof to support it. "You have to have faith" is very uncompelling stuff, has no place in a scientific world.

The mature mind may allow for others to waste their time on religion, but does not have to accept it as remotely valid.

[RonD1120 62]

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Right

Then why resort to insults? I didn't insult you?

It was a snarky observation. But, you are right and I apologize. I need to take a break from this thread.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[beowulf 1]

No need to apologize.

It doesn't bother me, was just wondering what your response would be if I pushed that issue.

[Southern_Man 0]

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It wasn't until then that the Catholic Church (during the Counter-Reformation) brought in the Apocryphal books and included them into their canon of scripture. Then, when Protestants asked where the scriptural support for these things was, they could point to their bible and say "there, it's in the bible." (Not to mention, that Jerome (early church father; Roman Catholic) in his Latin Vulgate (Latin translation of the Bible) did not include the Apocryphal books). The point being, the early church fathers never included those teachings. Neither should have the Catholic Church.

In general I think your history is pretty good but I think you are wrong here. The Apocrapha were part of the Septuagint and were included in many of the earliest complete manuscripts of the bible, including the Sinaiticus and Vaticinua, and Alexandrinus, the Holy Trinity of early manuscipts.

Frankly, I have never been entirely convinced that the Protestant Reformers were all that correct in insisting on basing their Old Testament translations on the Masoretic Text rather than the Septuagint, since it seems that it was okay with God that most of the authors of the New Testament, when they quoted the OT, quoted from the Septuagint rather than translating from the MT.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Guest]

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If confirmation did not manifest the faith would die out. It does manifest and faith grows.

Islam is growing. What confirmation are muslims getting?

Only because they are breeding like cucarachas under the refrigerator, not because they are getting much in the way of converts, voluntary or otherwise.

No beer, no bacon? Who in their right mind would willingly sign up for that, eh?

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake by the Church for teaching that the Sun is just a star like any other and the Earth orbits it.

Ummm...no. Giordano was burned for "Pantheism", a heresy at the time, not for a specific teaching as mentioned above. Please see "Giordano Bruno - Imprisonment", et seq.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,079]

>Giordano was burned for "Pantheism", a heresy at the time . . .

One of the charges against him that led to his execution was "claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity."

To their credit, the Church eventually did apologize for executing him,

[jakee 1,564]

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If you "knew" something was not true, would you be willing to be tortured and killed to further that falsehood? That's the key. Of course you might if you believed it. That happens all the time. But if you knew it was false? Goes to the credibility of the Apostle's stories. Then, consider the difference in what they were willing to endure for that cause (some requesting to be crucified upside down because they were unworthy to be put to death in the same way as the Savior.) And the fact that they actually saw what they were dying for. It is illogical to think that they would if they knew it was all a sham.

You're making very large mistakes when you assume first that what the apostles believe they saw must be what they actually saw, and second when you assume that they must have believed that either all of the miracles they claimed to have witnessed were true, or they made them all up.

Now the thing is, even in this day and age, people are gullible. Bit of sturm und drang rhetoric, bit of misdirection, bit of sleight of hand and you can pretty easily make a crowd of the right people believe whatever you're selling them. Today vast audiences believe wholeheartedly in faith healing. They get sucked in by the showmanship of it. And the really crazy bit? Some of the healers themselves believe it - even though they know they're cheating.

Have you ever seen an expose on for instance mediums and psychics? There are courses that teach the tricks, showmanship and flat out lies of cold reading and all the other techniques those guys use... but even after learning those tricks, and even when they're out there using those tricks to intentionally fool an audience, some of those people still genuinely think they're clairvoyant! The human mind is an incredible, devious thing.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Guest]

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Not very convincing.

They were not first nor the last to die tortuous deaths because of what they believed in and that does not lend any more credibility to the Christian mythology.

If you "knew" something was not true, would you be willing to be tortured and killed to further that falsehood? That's the key. Of course you might if you believed it. That happens all the time. But if you knew it was false? Goes to the credibility of the Apostle's stories. Then, consider the difference in what they were willing to endure for that cause (some requesting to be crucified upside down because they were unworthy to be put to death in the same way as the Savior.) And the fact that they actually saw what they were dying for. It is illogical to think that they would if they knew it was all a sham.

I think the big difference here is whether some are willing to suffer for their beliefs, OR ARE INSTEAD MORE THAN WILLING TO MAKE OTHERS SUFFER.

I rest my case.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[jakee 1,564]

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Linear adolescence compounded by myopic maturational experience. EFS, that is all there is.

"Now you are resorting to name calling and that with the incorrect use of terms from the mental health profession.

Such frustration and exasperation indicates a losing position. "

And the big man does it again!

It took you two more posts. Two. Hypocrisy just isn't a big enough word.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Guest]

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>Giordano was burned for "Pantheism", a heresy at the time . . .

One of the charges against him that led to his execution was "claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity."

One of many, and he wouldn't recant. He also wrote about Magic. Not something that was going to make him any friends among the Inquisitors, but I'm not defending them, just pointing out that you are grossly oversimplifying things. The fact is that he directly challenged Church authority and wouldn't back down in the face of death. Being autocrats, they didn't have a lot of wiggle room. He was burned because he was a threat to the status quo, not just because he espoused heliocentricity.

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[jakee 1,564]

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One of many, and he wouldn't recant. He also wrote about Magic. Not something that was going to make him any friends among the Inquisitors, but I'm not defending them, just pointing out that you are grossly oversimplifying things. The fact is that he directly challenged Church authority and wouldn't back down in the face of death. Being autocrats, they didn't have a lot of wiggle room. He was burned because he was a threat to the status quo, not just because he espoused heliocentricity.

Oh right, yeah. So they burned him because he wouldn't take it back, not because he said it, so it really wasn't anti-science at all! Makes perfect sense.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,079]

>One of many, and he wouldn't recant.

Agreed. Galileo was accused of the same crime, but he recanted his views on heliocentrism. As a result, he was imprisoned instead of being executed. (His prison sentence was later commuted to house arrest.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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One of many, and he wouldn't recant. He also wrote about Magic. Not something that was going to make him any friends among the Inquisitors, but I'm not defending them, just pointing out that you are grossly oversimplifying things. The fact is that he directly challenged Church authority and wouldn't back down in the face of death. Being autocrats, they didn't have a lot of wiggle room. He was burned because he was a threat to the status quo, not just because he espoused heliocentricity.

Oh right, yeah. So they burned him because he wouldn't take it back, not because he said it, so it really wasn't anti-science at all! Makes perfect sense.

just admit it - there's really no response to his posting. It's intellectually perfect! (Says God and the Catholic Church, circa 1600)

[Guest]

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>One of many, and he wouldn't recant.

Agreed. Galileo was accused of the same crime, but he recanted his views on heliocentrism. As a result, he was imprisoned instead of being executed. (His prison sentence was later commuted to house arrest.)

Galileo (not only being smart, but showing good judgement and wisdom, wasn't a smart-ass to the Inquisition) lived to fight another day. Whose name do we remember?

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[maadmax 0]

I think the big difference here is whether some are willing to suffer for their beliefs, OR ARE INSTEAD MORE THAN WILLING TO MAKE OTHERS SUFFER.

I rest my case.

mh
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[jaybird18c 24]

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You're making very large mistakes when you assume first that what the apostles believe they saw must be what they actually saw, and second when you assume that they must have believed that either all of the miracles they claimed to have witnessed were true, or they made them all up.

Now the thing is, even in this day and age, people are gullible. Bit of sturm und drang rhetoric, bit of misdirection, bit of sleight of hand and you can pretty easily make a crowd of the right people believe whatever you're selling them. Today vast audiences believe wholeheartedly in faith healing. They get sucked in by the showmanship of it. And the really crazy bit? Some of the healers themselves believe it - even though they know they're cheating.

Dude, that's quite a stretch. There were too many witnesses. Too many corroborating stories. There's no evidence that they were lying or insane. Especially, not "all" of them. That is ridiculous.

[Guest]

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I think the big difference here is whether some are willing to suffer for their beliefs, OR ARE INSTEAD MORE THAN WILLING TO MAKE OTHERS SUFFER.

I rest my case.

mh
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Damn good point!!!! +1

[Coreece 190]

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Considering that man has only been exposed to science for just a small fraction of his existence, we should one day soon be rid of the superstitions of our uneducated ancestors.

Yes, I suspect many people to fall away from the faith just as the bible predicts and that religion will evolve into something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrO4YZeyl0I&feature=fvwrel

Apparently they'll still be speaking tongues...

Rah-rah-ah-ah-ah-ah!
Roma-roma-mamaa!
Ga-ga-ooh-la-la!

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If you were able to keep a child free of exposure to religion, and then at the age of 18, give them the God proposition , they would laugh in your face and think you were in need of professional help.

Then there would still be the whole new set of problems from exposure to Lady Gaga...

I want your ugly
I want your disease
I want your everything
As long as it's free

I want your love and
I want your revenge

I want your horror
I want your design

I want your psycho
Your vertigo stick....

(it's a pretty deep video if you have the ability to pay close attention to detail....especially the end.)

btw, did you notice their tribute to Michael Jackson's tribute to the dead from "Thriller?"

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[Nigel 0]

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What I am trying to understand is--

Where does this atheist think that ethics come from? Did somebody just hit a Piňata and they fell out?

In the absence of spiritual / higher-power guidance (the "invisible friend" philosophy), what is the basis for cooperation/"do no harm"? Enlightened self-interest? If that were true, there would only be extended families/tribes instead of nation-states, right?

I also do not understand when billvon attributes righteous behavior to animal instincts--

"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance, and barbarism must always ultimately triumph." - Robert E. Howard

mh
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Mark,
I think this is a pretty common trap: Just because you or I can't understand something doesn't mean we need to invoke a supernatural explanation. (Personally, I subscribe to the 'knowledge is finite, ignorance is infinite' philosphy - ie no matter how much I know, there will always be at least one more thing I don't (bit like the 'biggest conceivable number, then add one to it' game). But I digress...
Anyway I can easily imagine evolutionary theory might allow prediction of continuum of (what we call) altruism or ethical or good behavior: though an imperfect model (ants/bees in a colony are pretty much clones) ants and bees can sacrifice themselves for the good of the colony. I can imagine not killing my fellow cave-dwellers too often favors my DNA, as does killing the cave-dwellers on the other side of the glacier (unless I've mated with their women...but that's another story!). Perhaps the less related you are to me, the easier it becomes to kill/eat you?

BTW 1: I think this was a weathered out, tongue in cheek, stir the pot post originally - you succeeded!

BTW 2: Who's Robert E Howard, and why should anyone care about his dogmatic statement? If I state the opposite, will the net effect be zero?

[Nigel 0]

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>Giordano was burned for "Pantheism", a heresy at the time . . .

One of the charges against him that led to his execution was "claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity."

To their credit, the Church eventually did apologize for executing him,

Giordano: 'Erhh?..Cheers church, thanks a lot man. No big deal, I'm only dead!'

[Nigel 0]

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A) Think about it.

That means you don't actually know, doesn't it?

Why bother? Christians can never give a coherent, sensible answer. They will almost always answer with a question. Never an answer.

Yesterday, the door knocking Christians were out in force. An older woman and two kids about 10 years old knocked on mine. I'm very sure that she regretted that. I told them that I did not believe in imaginary people nor do I believe in a book that commands people to kill other people in the name of an imaginary tyrant. The lady kept inserting that there was nothing in the bible that commanded people to kill others. It was obvious that this misguided woman has been brainwashed by the biggest cult ever known - Christianity. The sad thing is the children who were also being brainwashed by religion. I got out my old bible and went directly to a number of passages where this imaginary friend commanded people to kill men, women, and children. She was not aware of those passages. What a joke that she was. How dare that she knock on my door and push something she knows absolutely nothing about. How dare these psychotic lunatics brainwash children. This goes for all religions, not just Christianity.
She was appalled that I would denounce her imaginary friend in front of children. I am appalled that she would knock on a complete strangers door with children in tow in order to bring people into a cult! Her and her kind really do need to seek mental healthcare. I hear that anti-psychotic drugs, which reduce hallucinations and delusions and improve thinking and behavior are helpful, whether the cause is a medical or psychiatric disorder.

Hope you Christians are enjoying your Pagan holiday.
Have a happy Ishtar Day!!

I'm done with this thread.

I invite them in to share some fava beans and open a bottle of Chianti. Demolishing their fragile belief system seems cruel!

[Nigel 0]

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>Isn't that pretty much the way liberal left views society. Everything is in flux, dynamic
>and depends on the whims of the intellectual elite.

Everything _is_ in flux in our society - something I am sure you are grateful for. I am sure you would not enjoy living in a society where slavery was common, women were treated as property and scientists could be executed for believing that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

I really have trouble with the '...scientists could be executed..' bit. Oh, alright then - and the '...slavery...bit.

[billvon 3,079]

>Whose name do we remember?

Do you think future generations will remember Stephen Hawking or Osama Bin Laden? Fame isn't always a good indicator of achievement.

[Nigel 0]

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You're making very large mistakes when you assume first that what the apostles believe they saw must be what they actually saw, and second when you assume that they must have believed that either all of the miracles they claimed to have witnessed were true, or they made them all up.

Now the thing is, even in this day and age, people are gullible. Bit of sturm und drang rhetoric, bit of misdirection, bit of sleight of hand and you can pretty easily make a crowd of the right people believe whatever you're selling them. Today vast audiences believe wholeheartedly in faith healing. They get sucked in by the showmanship of it. And the really crazy bit? Some of the healers themselves believe it - even though they know they're cheating.

Dude, that's quite a stretch. There were too many witnesses. Too many corroborating stories. There's no evidence that they were lying or insane. Especially, not "all" of them. That is ridiculous.

Well...there were 12 apostles, but only 4 gospels. And (I don't think this is contentious) written about 30 years after the 'event'. I'm with the 8 out of 12 who couldn't be arsed to contradict their crazy old friends.
Also, if you have enough people with crazy ideas, the rationalists eventually get bored and give up. So a handful get through. Bit like nuclear power stations really, cheap(ish) energy for 30 years, then 10,000 years of cleaning up...
So strike me down with a thunderbolt (plagues of locusts are soo passe), you silly dick! (God, not you Jaybird18)!