Religion Question

[kittikat 0]

I can't believe I'm posting here (usually just lurk)... but I have a question that I figured some of the religious members on here could answer.

This applies to Christianity / Islam and most of the major versions of those (not so much to Buddhism or Hinduism). Using Christianity just for the sake of this example, as I think it is what most on this forum practice or are most familiar with.

We know that an unbaptized child / or one who hasn't accepted Jesus as lord and savior will go to hell - you must be baptized and accept Jesus etc in order to get into heaven. What about children / people born in Africa or New Guinea? Those who have never even heard of Christianity and therefore never even had a chance to choose whether or not they believe and follow this religion? For all of those people who never even had a chance, how is it acceptable / fair to send them to hell as non-believers? How can a fair and/or loving god be ok with this?

Yes, it is a Christian's job to spread the word etc.... but what about those who didn't ever hear it? I've asked Christian friends this and they can't explain it. Please enlighten me.
*Edited to specify not only baptized, but one who has accepted Christianity.

[diverborg 0]

Not gonna take the time to try and answer the complete question here because I simply don't think I'm on authority to, and thats a very tough question any Christian has to ask themselves.

However, who or where in the bible does it insinuate that if you're not baptized you will go to hell?

I think the new testament is pretty specific that we are saved by grace alone, not by grace and... (insert whatever, works, baptism, etc.)

[Meso 38]

I'll answer as a former Christian.

While having read the bible, I don't know enough of it off hand to say what the bible has to say on this in particular, but I can tell you what all the previous churches I attended said about this.

In the Baptist Christian churches, at least in my experience they definitely didn't promote the idea that anyone who doesn't know about Jesus goes to hell. In fact they said that those who have not heard of the Lord shall go to heaven because while they never accepted Jesus as such, they never denied him either; they used this same angle in regards to children.

All those who deny Jesus after being 'enlightened' go to hell, but those who don't have the opportunity to hear 'the word of God' are forgiven automatically for their sins because they are not aware that what they are doing is wrong.

Of course, the primary problem is that you're seeking logical thought in religion. You will struggle to find any - One would think being all powerful, God would have been able to establish a better guideline for judgement, and be sure to communicate it with the writers of the scriptures very clearly, seems a lot more important than stoning homosexuals.

[tkhayes 348]

you will actually go to hell for a variety of reasons. The reasons will vary and will change with time, with the specific religion and mostly the reasons will change depending on who is telling you that you are going to hell. Mostly they are trying to sign you up.

For others it is just a twisted power thing, and there are others (somewhat respected that have posted here) that openly state that you have to do NOTHING to go to hell.

Some will even tell you that if they fuck you in the ass and then you tell someone, that you will go to hell.

Which is primarily why religion, all of it, it a crock.

If you need some spirituality in your life, that may be fine. Set your own standard, but do NOT, under any circumstances, blindly follow the rantings of any single ministry.

[RonD1120 62]

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I can't believe I'm posting here (usually just lurk)... but I have a question that I figured some of the religious members on here could answer.

This applies to Christianity / Islam and most of the major versions of those (not so much to Buddhism or Hinduism). Using Christianity just for the sake of this example, as I think it is what most on this forum practice or are most familiar with.

We know that an unbaptized child / or one who hasn't accepted Jesus as lord and savior will go to hell - you must be baptized and accept Jesus etc in order to get into heaven. What about children / people born in Africa or New Guinea? Those who have never even heard of Christianity and therefore never even had a chance to choose whether or not they believe and follow this religion? For all of those people who never even had a chance, how is it acceptable / fair to send them to hell as non-believers? How can a fair and/or loving god be ok with this?

Yes, it is a Christian's job to spread the word etc.... but what about those who didn't ever hear it? I've asked Christian friends this and they can't explain it. Please enlighten me.
*Edited to specify not only baptized, but one who has accepted Christianity.

My response as a Christian counselor is based on experience and understanding of how to seek the sanctified life. I did not study Scripture until after I was saved, that is, after I humbled myself and accepted Jesus Christ as Lord of my life. In other words, I am and have been more interested in applying Scripture rather than conjuring "what if" scenarios.

You will find argument within the body of Christ as to whether water baptism is required for salvation. I say it is not based on my experience. I was saved 16 Mar 81 but did not receive water baptism until c.Apr 83.

Additionally, I asked for and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with signs following, a little later that month. This baptism is a traditional practice within the Pentecostals and Charismatics but not widely accepted throughout the body of Christ.

Both baptisms are important steps in the life of the committed Christian.

In essence the Christian has come to believe that the path chosen for life was wrong, inefficient and, harmful to self and others. The Christian "repents" or changes his/her mind about their life path and seeks guidance on the new adventure. That guidance comes from the Holy Spirit, Whose ministry is to keep you focused on the light of Christ.

The Holy Bible clearly states that Christ is the gateway to eternal life. It is a gift from the grace of God. You have to decide to accept it. To not make a decision is making a decision against.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[winsor 236]

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I can't believe I'm posting here (usually just lurk)... but I have a question that I figured some of the religious members on here could answer.

This applies to Christianity / Islam and most of the major versions of those (not so much to Buddhism or Hinduism). Using Christianity just for the sake of this example, as I think it is what most on this forum practice or are most familiar with.

We know that an unbaptized child / or one who hasn't accepted Jesus as lord and savior will go to hell - you must be baptized and accept Jesus etc in order to get into heaven. What about children / people born in Africa or New Guinea? Those who have never even heard of Christianity and therefore never even had a chance to choose whether or not they believe and follow this religion? For all of those people who never even had a chance, how is it acceptable / fair to send them to hell as non-believers? How can a fair and/or loving god be ok with this?

Yes, it is a Christian's job to spread the word etc.... but what about those who didn't ever hear it? I've asked Christian friends this and they can't explain it. Please enlighten me.
*Edited to specify not only baptized, but one who has accepted Christianity.

Not to worry, the Salt Lake City crowd is busily baptizing every human ever born, to the best of their ability. I am not making this up.

The Book of Mormon is one of the few religious texts I could not force myself to read in its entirety, as it is a truly awful work. Mein Kampf is another I have yet to finish, for the same reason.

However, amongst the things Joseph Smith dreamed up appears to be the transcendent quality of baptism in accordance with his standards. Thus, the nice people of the LDS have given everyone a free pass.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Andrewwhyte 1]

According to Dante the virtuous pagans were installed in limbo.

In the Divine Comedy, Dante depicts Limbo as the first circle of Hell, located beyond the river Acheron but before the judgment seat of Minos. The virtuous pagans of classical history and mythology inhabit a brightly lit and beautiful—but somber—castle which is seemingly a medieval version of Elysium. They include Hector, Julius Caesar, and Virgil. In the same work, a semi-infernal region, above Limbo on the other side of Acheron, but inside the Gate of Hell, also exists—it is the "vestibule" of Hell and houses so-called "neutralists" or "opportunists", who devoted their lives neither to good nor to evil, they are being pursued by hornets; its residents include those angels who did not fight at all in the war that resulted in the expulsion of Lucifer from Heaven, and also either Pope Celestine V or Pontius Pilate, the text is ambiguous.
-from the Wiki

Gawd it's time we put the fairy tales away as a society.

[jaybird18c 24]

Hopefully without getting into the baptism issue too deeply, I would quickly say that the bible is clear that no one is justified by the act of baptism or any other work (by us). However, Christians are instructed to do so. Catholics believe in Sacradotalism indicating that one is saved through the sacraments (e.g. must be baptized and participate in the mass in order to be saved). Therefore, they also baptize their infants/children. I very strongly disagree with this (Sacradotalism, not the paedobaptism part) and find it absolutely contrary to the teachings of Paul (Ephesians 2:8-9). Others (e.g. Presbyterians) also believe in paedobaptism, however, it means something completely different from the Catholics. Presbyterians (Reformed/Covenantal Theology) see it, as do Baptists/Methodists, etc. as a "Sign of the New Covenant." However, Presbyterians come at it from a different perspective. They (of which I am one) believe that baptism is in fact a sign of the New Covenant but that it is a sign of God's covenant with His people (which cannot be broken because God always keeps His promises). We, on the other hand, always do not and fall short. Baptism is a replacement of the "blood" covenant of circumcision in the OT with the "bloodless" New Covenant accomplished by Jesus Christ in the NT. It is now, identification with the Savior. It in NO WAY indicates that one is justified before God. That ONLY comes by faith (evidenced by repentance) in Jesus Christ (those whom He has called to Himself). However, it does mean that infant who has been baptized into the covenant family enjoys the benefits of such. At some point, he/she will be required to repent and place their faith in Jesus in order to be saved. Also, believers, if not baptized, should also be. Baptists, on the other hand, just come at it from the human perspective (which is not necessarily wrong). They say that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change (which is true) and that (in the NT), only believers were described being baptized (which is also true; by immersion, most likely). I've got no problem with that. Both of us agree that no one is saved by baptism. We could be wrong and still have fellowship with one another. Anyway, that’s my understanding of baptism in a nutshell (my opinion; everybody’s got one). That aside, I’ll think about the question of children dying at a young age and whether they are saved or not and post in a bit. Gotta pace myself.

[RonD1120 62]

Does "the age of accountability" concept have a bearing on the death of children?

As I stated above, my approach has been the application of the NT in my life and teaching the path to others.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jimbrown 0]

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Hopefully without getting into the baptism issue too deeply, I would quickly say that the bible is clear that no one is justified by the act of baptism or any other work (by us). However, Christians are instructed to do so. Catholics believe in Sacradotalism indicating that one is saved through the sacraments (e.g. must be baptized and participate in the mass in order to be saved). Therefore, they also baptize their infants/children. I very strongly disagree with this (Sacradotalism, not the paedobaptism part) and find it absolutely contrary to the teachings of Paul (Ephesians 2:8-9). Others (e.g. Presbyterians) also believe in paedobaptism, however, it means something completely different from the Catholics. Presbyterians (Reformed/Covenantal Theology) see it, as do Baptists/Methodists, etc. as a "Sign of the New Covenant." However, Presbyterians come at it from a different perspective. They (of which I am one) believe that baptism is in fact a sign of the New Covenant but that it is a sign of God's covenant with His people (which cannot be broken because God always keeps His promises). We, on the other hand, always do not and fall short. Baptism is a replacement of the "blood" covenant of circumcision in the OT with the "bloodless" New Covenant accomplished by Jesus Christ in the NT. It is now, identification with the Savior. It in NO WAY indicates that one is justified before God. That ONLY comes by faith (evidenced by repentance) in Jesus Christ (those whom He has called to Himself). However, it does mean that infant who has been baptized into the covenant family enjoys the benefits of such. At some point, he/she will be required to repent and place their faith in Jesus in order to be saved. Also, believers, if not baptized, should also be. Baptists, on the other hand, just come at it from the human perspective (which is not necessarily wrong). They say that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change (which is true) and that (in the NT), only believers were described being baptized (which is also true; by immersion, most likely). I've got no problem with that. Both of us agree that no one is saved by baptism. We could be wrong and still have fellowship with one another. Anyway, that’s my understanding of baptism in a nutshell (my opinion; everybody’s got one). That aside, I’ll think about the question of children dying at a young age and whether they are saved or not and post in a bit. Gotta pace myself.

Uhm.., yeah.

Actually my research indicates that the Master ,Jesus the Christ taught that man didn't need priests as go betweens to have a relationship with God.
As you can imagine that kinda pissed off the priests a bit.It cut into their profits!

If I am correct and I sincerely believe that I am, then babtism by water or by "the Fire of the Holy Spirit(?) "{don't be afraid of that ghost!} is completely unnecessary and really all of the ""Christian " religions were a scheme designed to make money and control peoples behaviors.

Peace to you,
Jim B

[jaybird18c 24]

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Does "the age of accountability" concept have a bearing on the death of children?

Let me emphasize to you that I do not consider this an "essential" that we'd have to agree on (as Christians) in terms of salvation (just with regard to baptism; I haven't gotten to the "infant saved or not" question yet). I guess my answer to your question above is "it depends."

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As I stated above, my approach has been the application of the NT in my life and teaching the path to others.

The God of the OT is the same God in the NT. I agree that we are under the New Covenant and should live our lives as such as is described in the NT. However, I don't think one can fully "understand" what God has revealed to us about himself unless you start in the beginning. The story is an unfolding "progressive revelation" of God's plan of salvation for His people. It starts in Genesis with God having to call Adam back to himself (because he wouldn't have come on his own) and providing the first sacrificial "sin-covering" (animal sacrifice) Himself (a type/shadow of the sufficient one to come; Jesus Christ). All of scripture helps our understanding. Just my opinion brother. Again, not an essential.

[diverborg 0]

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If I am correct and I sincerely believe that I am, then babtism by water or by "the Fire of the Holy Spirit(?) "{don't be afraid of that ghost!} is completely unnecessary and really all of the ""Christian " religions were a scheme designed to make money and control peoples behaviors.

Peace to you,
Jim B

Peace to you as well.

However, as far as the Bible teaches without the spin that man likes to put on everything (which believe it or not there are churches that try their best not to do that), baptism is command that we are to do after repenting and choosing to follow Jesus. Nowhere does it say its required to be "saved". However it is a public identifying of yourself with Jesus, nothing more. There is no magic that happens, you don't need to pay a priest to do this for you.

I sometimes think the church (Jesus's followers in general) would actually thrive better and serve a better purpose if a world without church buildings. In many countries believers have to meet in secret in homes and have to do so on irregular schedules to keep from being discovered. We tie in so much cultural garbage and tradition into American Christianity, that I would say far more than the majority of church goers are completely missing it. When we strip all the superficial crap away, and its just fellow believers gathering for a purpose, that is a thing of beauty. If a person wishes to be baptized, the group can easily baptize anybody in a creek, swimming pool, bathtub, mudpuddle, or wherever, without the need of some priest or pastor that the (insert denomination) leadership has decided can be the only one to do it. You don't need some special "holy water" thats been blessed by so and so. I'm pretty sure it all has the same chemical makeup. It was never meant to be about money, and its a travesty if any churches have turned it into that.

Its all about you and your creator. Don't let a bunch of annoying so called Christian hypocrites get in your way of knowing Him. Nobody on earth is controlling me and my actions except maybe my wife. I go to church to worship, fellowship, learn and equip myself, but I answer only to God.

[weekender 0]

Roman Catholic church's official stance on this is rather vague. This is from a recent document published by the Vatican's International Theological Commission


"Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision,"

"We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge,"

As a child i was taught of limbo but the RC Church no longer teaches this.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[jimbrown 0]

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If I am correct and I sincerely believe that I am, then babtism by water or by "the Fire of the Holy Spirit(?) "{don't be afraid of that ghost!} is completely unnecessary and really all of the ""Christian " religions were a scheme designed to make money and control peoples behaviors.

Peace to you,
Jim B

Peace to you as well.

However, as far as the Bible teaches without the spin that man likes to put on everything (which believe it or not there are churches that try their best not to do that), baptism is command that we are to do after repenting and choosing to follow Jesus. Nowhere does it say its required to be "saved". However it is a public identifying of yourself with Jesus, nothing more. There is no magic that happens, you don't need to pay a priest to do this for you.

I sometimes think the church (Jesus's followers in general) would actually thrive better and serve a better purpose if a world without church buildings. In many countries believers have to meet in secret in homes and have to do so on irregular schedules to keep from being discovered. We tie in so much cultural garbage and tradition into American Christianity, that I would say far more than the majority of church goers are completely missing it. When we strip all the superficial crap away, and its just fellow believers gathering for a purpose, that is a thing of beauty. If a person wishes to be baptized, the group can easily baptize anybody in a creek, swimming pool, bathtub, mudpuddle, or wherever, without the need of some priest or pastor that the (insert denomination) leadership has decided can be the only one to do it. You don't need some special "holy water" thats been blessed by so and so. I'm pretty sure it all has the same chemical makeup. It was never meant to be about money, and its a travesty if any churches have turned it into that.

Its all about you and your creator. Don't let a bunch of annoying Christian hypocrites get in your way of knowing Him. Nobody on earth is controlling me and my actions except maybe my wife. I go to church to learn and equip myself, but I answer only to God.

Here is a question for you to consider and you don't need to reply but I'd be interested in what you think .

Was Jesus a man or was he a God?

My research indicates that he was a man just like you and me who through education attained the highest enlightenment(the Christ initiation) thus earning the title "Master".

Really if you think about it , if you are god and you let yourself be tortured to death, where is the sacrifice?
A god could easilly block out the pain .Many humans (buddist monks for example) have this ability.
Also if you are a god you would also know that you could never die.

So was Jesus a god like ourselves(His teaching) or a Man like ourselves?

Peace,
Jim B.

[jaybird18c 24]

This is from a book I had to read for Systematic Theology 1. The book is “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination”, Loraine Boettner, 1932. I can’t explain it any better than they did. It reflects my belief on the subject.

“Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved. The Scriptures seem to teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved; but they are silent or practically so in regard to those of the heathens. The Westminster Confession does not pass judgment on the children of heathens who die before coming to years of accountability. Where the Scriptures are silent, the Confession, too, preserves silence. Our outstanding theologians, however, mindful of the fact that God’s “tender mercies are over all His works,” and depending on His mercy widened as broadly as possible, have entertained a charitable hope that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principals.”

“Their destiny is determined irrespective of their choice, by an unconditional decree of God, suspended for its execution on no act of their own; and their salvation is wrought by an unconditional application of the grace of Christ to their souls, through the immediate and irresistible operation of the Holy Spirit prior to and apart from any action of their own proper wills.” (B.B. Warfield)

Again, I could be completely wrong on this and this is a “non-essential” position that we can agree to disagree on. I submit to what the scripture says. I remain flexible on where scripture is silent or where a particular subject is left in ambiguity. It would be my hope that all infants would be saved by God’s grace. The payment of Jesus Christ was certainly sufficient for the salvation of all. However, for reasons known only to Him, it was only efficient for His elect.

[jaybird18c 24]

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So was Jesus a god like ourselves(His teaching) or a Man like ourselves?

Both. Hypostatic Union - Jesus Christ was "fully" God and, at the same time, "fully" human. Impossible to explain properly or understand completely. It is in fact a mystery. But necessary. If He was one but not the other, then that is very bad news for us because we cannot be forgiven our sins. Both would be required for His sacrifice to be sufficient.

Added: Looking back at your quote, I totally disagree with one part. The part where you described Jesus as a "god like ourselves." Just gotta make that clear. We "are not" little gods.

[jimbrown 0]

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So was Jesus a god like ourselves(His teaching) or a Man like ourselves?

Both. Hypostatic Union - Jesus Christ was "fully" God and, at the same time, "fully" human. Impossible to explain properly or understand completely. It is in fact a mystery. But necessary. If He was one but not the other, then that is very bad news for us because we cannot be forgiven our sins. Both would be required for His sacrifice to be sufficient.

Uhmm,
My research indicates that the Master, Jesus the Christ taught that he was not the one to forgive our sins but rather it is up to each of us to forgive ourselves of our sins.
Further my research indicates his teachings are that each of us are just like him (perhaps not yet quitw as educated) as we are all Sons of God . Evidence to this claim is in the prayer he taught us.

Do you know it?

Peace,
Jim B

[david3 0]

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Just gotta make that clear. We "are not" little gods.

Speak for yourself please.

[jimbrown 0]

[replyAdded: Looking back at your quote, I totally disagree with one part. The part where you described Jesus as a "god like ourselves." Just gotta make that clear. We "are not" little gods.

[jaybird18c 24]

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My research indicates that the Master, Jesus the Christ taught that he was not the one to forgive our sins but rather it is up to each of us to forgive ourselves of our sins.
Further my research indicates his teachings are that each of us are just like him (perhaps not yet quitw as educated) as we are all Sons of God . Evidence to this claim is in the prayer he taught us.

Several items of disagreement here: (And don't take this wrong; I don't mean any of it as an attack)

Jesus appointed as Judge

“We are witnesses of all these things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, no to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arouse from the dead. And He ordered us to preach to the people , and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 10:38-43)

“We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:3-8)

With regard to our being able to save ourselves:

(God speaking to Jonah) “But I will sacrifice to You with the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is from the Lord.” (Jonah 2:9)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:8)

If you were just like Him, you wouldn't need saving and Jesus didn't have to die in your place (a fatal misunderstanding).

“These things you have done and I kept silence; You thought that I was just like you; I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes.” (Psalm 50:21)

[jaybird18c 24]

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The greatest teaching of the Master Jesus the Christ and the most important piece of his education is that all of us are not just Human , but rather we are God living a Hunan experience.

I don't say this in meanness. I promise. But what you just said is very heretical and not up for debate. It is the stuff that cults are made of. It is the lie that was first told to Adam & Eve. ("Did God really say; You can be like God")

[jimbrown 0]

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The greatest teaching of the Master Jesus the Christ and the most important piece of his education is that all of us are not just Human , but rather we are God living a Hunan experience.

I don't say this in meanness. I promise. But what you just said is very heretical and not up for debate. It is the stuff that cults are made of. It is the lie that was first told to Adam & Eve. ("Did God really say; You can be like God")

Jesus taught us to pray "Our Father"
He didn't say " My Father"
If we all have the same Father as Jesus and Jesus is God ,it follows that we are all God.
And just like the Christ we are all having a human experience .

One more thing .., didn't Jesus tell us to forget all that old testament knownsense?

Peace,
Jim B

[RonD1120 62]

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I didn't say "little"!

Now here me out.
The Master taught that we all have a soul, correct?
And that soul is Spirit ,a part of God .

Man is comprised of a soul, a spirit and lives in a body. The body dies in time.

The spirit seeks relationship with God. It is the basis of life.

The soul is the mind, emotions and, the will. The soul is eternal.

Reference, Hebrews and Charles R. Solomon.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jumpsalot-2 3]

As Jesus was Jewish. What will happen to God's chosen people ( The Jews ). They aren't Christians. I guess they're all going to Hell.....NO of course they won't. How about Mary Magnalin, Jesus' wife, will she be there ? Yes, as a Jewish man, Jesus was married. Mary Magnalin was also a Desciple. Most people don't know that, and cound not believe it. They only believe the modified, and chosen books of the New Testiment established around 315 AD ( Ano Domini ), by Constintine and associates. They could never include the book by Mary M. of course, no way they would let a Woman be involved.....NO WAY....I do have a religious back ground by the way. 8 yrs @ Lutheran grammer school, 4 yrs. Jesuit High School, and years and years of Church as an adult. I just have a need to understand historical truth.

Life is short ... jump often.

[jaybird18c 24]

Wow! What to say to all that... Nevermind...