Bin Laden is Dead

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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What happened during those 25 minutes? How did an unarmed man lying in bed with his wife in the middle of the night, resist arrest to the point that the only option was to shoot him dead?

How about by reaching under his pillow?

Or under the blankets?

Or towards a weapon that was nearby?

He was a known combat veteran. He had a shitlload of money sewn into his clothes. I would find it impossible to believe that he didn't have a weapon near to hand.

As I said before, under those circumstances, any sudden moves by OBL would have been interpereted as "resistance." And would have been met with deadly force.

For a good comparison, make a sudden reach under the seat of your car the next time you get pulled over. Even unarmed, it's a good way to test out the cop's reactions and training.

Edit: Spelling and grammar

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rushmc 23]

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So now we have him as unarmed, a 25 minute blackout and the he's shot "resisting". Be honest, does this disturb you even just a little?

Not at all. I do find it disturbing the number of people (mostly republicans) who are upset that an unarmed mass murderer was killed by the Navy SEALS. And these are the very same people who were calling for his death before this.

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Oh, and now we know they used stealth helicopters to try and get in without waking anybody up.

Would you rather they gave bin Laden a courtesy wake up call first?

So you cant defend your earlier statements and now you go to this??

twilight zone stuff

whatever dude

All I was talking about was the changing stories. Just want a story line that is close to the truth as I understand that we can not be given all the info for good reasons

But I guess you are ok with what has been going on since they got him

Enjoy your world
Where ever the heck that is

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

Did you think you were replying to me?

- Dan G

[rushmc 23]

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Did you think you were replying to me?

I meant to

but I would have to find the right world to do that. I can only guess where that might be

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

That insult makes no sense. Try harder.

When you come up with changes to the story, let me know.

- Dan G

[rushmc 23]

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That insult makes no sense. Try harder.

When you come up with changes to the story, let me know.

Armed? Unarmed?
Stot resisting? Captured and killed?
Woman sheald? killed? shot in leg?

Just for starters

Again
I think we got him

I just want a story close to the truth
Not a story engineered for the best political impact

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,446]

And I'll bet that we'll wait just as hard as we will for all those official reports of fatalities where there are different stories coming through in the first few days.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DanG 1]

Like I said, the only changes to the story were armed vs. unarmed, and using the woman as a shield. Shot while resisting hasn't changed.

If you really think they were giving you an engineered story, don't you think they would have worked out all the details ahead of time? The fact that there was initial confusion and people got their facts wrong indicates that the story was not pre-scripted.

- Dan G

[david3 0]

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Continuing to repeat the same claims about a "shoot to kill" order does not constitute additional evidence.

No one has ever claimed terrorists have the same rights as Americans when they are in the middle of a battle. Once they're in custody, yes, but not while bullets are flying. Try reading up on the Law of Land Warfare.

This story has really grown legs. What do you think happened during that 25 min. blackout? So now we have him as unarmed, a 25 minute blackout and the he's shot "resisting". Be honest, does this disturb you even just a little? Oh, and now we know they used stealth helicopters to try and get in without waking anybody up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

What happened during those 25 minutes? How did an unarmed man lying in bed with his wife in the middle of the night, resist arrest to the point that the only option was to shoot him dead?

I don’t know about you but if I woke to the sound of 4 helicopters outside my home, 2 of them landing in the yard, one of those crash landing and then gunfire, I wouldn’t just lie there in bed. Why are you trying to make it sound like the SEALs broke in and found him in bed? Do you think he was hiding underneath the covers? Are you saying the stealth helicopters and gunfire went unnoticed? In that scenario would you be incapable of resisting. I know I could put up a fight. At the very least I would be capable of making the wrong move and getting myself shot.
People who aren’t the worlds most wanted man and have no reason to believe their house might be the target of uninvited invaders live prepared for break-ins but you think Osama was defenseless and slept until shot. I just don’t buy it. I don’t think you believe that either.
Add to that my belief that we wanted to gather as much information as possible from him. I think our first choice was to take him alive but since he was a real and serious threat, shoot to kill if it is perceived he is resisting.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Why do you think they erased 25 minutes of tape? What do you think happened to make them shoot an unarmed man during that time period? Doesn't it at least bother you a little? Do you believe you have gotten the whole truth about what happened?

Didn't this administration claim that trrorists, captured on the battlefield, had rights? Didn't this administration court martial a Navy Seal just for punching a terrorist in the mouth?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/21/navy-seals-court-martial-opens-iraq/

Do you think this was on the Seals minds during that 25 minutes of video and audio blackout?

[rehmwa 2]

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Continuing to deny that he was captured alive and then ordered to be shot will not make the growing possibility that happened go away. Even the WH admits he wasn't armed but later "resisted". How does an unarmed person resist to the point that the only option is to shoot them in the head and chest?

seems the only option remaining when PC thugs hate tasers so much nowadays

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

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Why do you think they erased 25 minutes of tape?

Do you not realize the difference between 25 minutes of communication loss, and going back to "erase the tape" later? The communications with the States would have been by satellite, which is notoriously fickle. Having used mobile satellite communications devices, I'm not at all surprized that video was lost during the raid. Frankly, I'm surprized they had semi-real time communications with the White House at all.

- Dan G

[DaVinci 0]

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And by turning the operation over to the warlords, we will never know.

Way to dodge the point...

1. We thought he was in a REGION.
2. We thought he was in a HOUSE.

One is an "easy" op, the other damn difficult.

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Is your brain as dead as Saddam's and Bin Laden's?

1. Personal attacks all you have?
2. The US CAPTURED SH... And when I say US, I mean Delta http://articles.cnn.com/2003-12-14/world/sprj.irq.saddam.operation_1_saddam-hussein-travel-in-large-entourages-operation-red-dawn?_s=PM:WORLD

Your incorrect opinion was that Bush would have bombed OBL "like he did Saddam"... But the fact is that Bush sent Delta to get Saddam... Pretty much just like Obama sent DEVGRU to get OBL.

The only real difference is Obama sent a US team into a sovereign country without permission and the SEALs killed an unarmed OBL.

Now. I AGREE with what Obama did... The major difference is that you can't get past your hate of Bush long enough to be objective.

[DaVinci 0]

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You asked me if I would rejoice if someone who hurt me or people I love got killed (paraphrasing, but I believe that was the general idea).

Nope.. not me.

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but I know myself well enough to know that killing another person would not bring me joy.

Yet you have accused several others of that exact same thing.

[DaVinci 0]

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I think I will wait until next week to pay any more attention to this story. Maybe we can get down to one version for more than an hour by then

Yeah some inconsistencies are popping up.

1. We took fire on the helo... (Later) It went down due to a MX issue.

2. He was armed when we confronted him... (Later) No, he was unarmed, but resisted.

3. He used his wife as a shield.... (Later) No, he didn't

4. His wife was killed... (Later) No, she was not killed.

5. We took measurements to prove it was him... (Later) We had a guy the same size as him lay down next to him to get measurements.

The best thing they could do is quit talking.

[wsd 0]

Killing the enemy is not to bring joy nor sorrow, guilt nor elation, it is just as if you had finished any other type of task.

Take pleasure in it and you get a psych review, same for the other reactions.

But I do not know anything...

[DanG 1]

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1. We took fire on the helo... (Later) It went down due to a MX issue.

I don't recall anyone in authority ever saying the helicopter was shot down.

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2. He was armed when we confronted him... (Later) No, he was unarmed, but resisted.

3. He used his wife as a shield.... (Later) No, he didn't

Granted, those bits changed.

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4. His wife was killed... (Later) No, she was not killed.

I think the original story was that a woman believed to be his wife was killed. The only thing that changed was the fact that she wasn't his wife.

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5. We took measurements to prove it was him... (Later) We had a guy the same size as him lay down next to him to get measurements.

This one's new to me. All I remember hearing was that one of the ways they determined it was him was from his body measurements. That doesn't mean they got out a tape measure, it means that the dude they killed was the right size. OBL was very tall for an Arab, so checking to see how tall they guy they killed was makes sense. It's unlikely the SEALs had tape measures, but I suppose it is possible.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

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Killing the enemy is not to bring joy nor sorrow, guilt nor elation, it is just as if you had finished any other type of task....

taking out the trash - needs to be done, isn't really cause for a party though. But if you don't do it now, it's gets pretty smelly after a while and eventually people start to get sick.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[freethefly 6]

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Way to dodge the point...

Not a dodge at all. Just a point that they might had got bin-Laden and many others much sooner had the mission not been turned over to warlords who may had possibly helped them to escape.

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Personal attacks all you have?

Not a PA, but a rhetorical question. Besides, you adamantly claimed that the U.S. did not drop any bombs on Saddam. Now, that is just crazy. And I did give you one example of bombs dropped on Saddam in the hope of killing him. You have nothing.

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The only real difference is Obama sent a US team into a sovereign country without permission and the SEALs killed an unarmed OBL.

And Bush sent an entire army into a sovereign country to kill Saddam. Although they failed to get him with bombs and bullets, they turned him over to be lynched.
At lease with OBL we did not bomb the hell out of Pakistan like we did in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Good riddance to Saddam and bin-Laden, anyway.

I personally do not think that the world is better off now as it will be business as usual. Take out one bad guy and there is another to quickly take his place.
It just goes on and on with no end in sight. It has always been this way and will continue on and on and on.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[DaVinci 0]

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I don't recall anyone in authority ever saying the helicopter was shot down.

I can't find the quote now but:

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110502/wl_nm/us_binladen_pakistan_3

"After midnight, a large number of commandos encircled the compound. Three helicopters were hovering overhead. All of a sudden there was firing toward the helicopters from the ground," said Nasir Khan, a resident of the town.

"There was intense firing and then I saw one of the helicopters crash," said Khan, who had watched the dramatic scene unfold from his rooftop.

And the guy who tweeted the event

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ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
Helicopter hovering above Abbottabad at 1AM (is a rare event).
10 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
Go away helicopter - before I take out my giant swatter :-/
10 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
A huge window shaking bang here in Abbottabad Cantt. I hope its not the start of something nasty :-S
10 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
all silent after the blast, but a friend heard it 6 km away too... the helicopter is gone too.
9 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
the few people online at this time of the night are saying one of the copters was not Pakistani...
9 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
Funny, moving to Abbottabad was part of the 'being safe' strategy
9 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
Since taliban (probably) don't have helicpoters, and since they're saying it was not "ours", so must be a complicated situation #abbottabad
9 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
The abbottabad helicopter/UFO was shot down near the Bilal Town area, and there's report of a flash. People saying it could be a drone.
9 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
people are saying it was not a technical fault and it was shot down. I heard it CIRCLE 3-4 times above, sounded purposeful.
9 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
Two helicpoters, one down, could actually be the training accident scenario they're saying it was >> http://bit.ly/ioGE6O
8 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
And now, a plane flying over Abbottabad...
7 hours ago

ReallyVirtual Sohaib Athar
Uh oh, now I'm the guy who liveblogged the Osama raid without knowing it.
1 hour ago

Like I said, I can't find an official saying it, but I do remember reading it, and some data points in that direction.

The helo could have gone down.

1. MX
2. Shot down
3. "Settling with Power"

MX is always possible.
RPG's will take a helo down.
Settling with power is much less likely with a blackhawk and the caliber of pilots the SOCOM community uses.

So yes, most of us know that info will change the further we get from the event. But the best thing they could do is quit talking till they have the "official" story.

[DaVinci 0]

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Not a dodge at all. Just a point that they might had got bin-Laden and many others much sooner had the mission not been turned over to warlords who may had possibly helped them to escape.

You said Bush would have bombed OBL.... But he didn't bomb Saddam. So yeah, you dodged the point I made.

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Not a PA, but a rhetorical question.

Huh??? "Is your brain as dead as Saddam's and Bin Laden's?" is not a PA, but a rhetorical question?

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Besides, you adamantly claimed that the U.S. did not drop any bombs on Saddam

No, I claimed they sent Delta in to get him. You ignored that since it does not fit into your "hatred of Bush" view.

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And Bush sent an entire army into a sovereign country to kill Saddam

Following a UN resolution, and after a vote by the Senate (77-23) and the House (296-133).

Obama just sent troops.

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At lease with OBL we did not bomb the hell out of Pakistan like we did in Afghanistan and Iraq

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5045626&page=1

You have nothing but an irrational hatred of Bush that is coloring your perceptions of everything.

[normiss 800]

No it's not.
War is declared and endorsed by Congress.
When did that happen?

[david3 0]

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Why do you think they erased 25 minutes of tape? What do you think happened to make them shoot an unarmed man during that time period? Doesn't it at least bother you a little? Do you believe you have gotten the whole truth about what happened?

Didn't this administration claim that trrorists, captured on the battlefield, had rights? Didn't this administration court martial a Navy Seal just for punching a terrorist in the mouth?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/21/navy-seals-court-martial-opens-iraq/

Do you think this was on the Seals minds during that 25 minutes of video and audio blackout?

I gave you my view on your statements/questions. I am asking you to answer mine.

[freethefly 6]

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Bush didn't use bombs on Saddam, so your claims have zero data to back them up.

That is your statement. You claim that no bombs were ever dropped on Saddam! That is insane, as we all watched it on T.V. in real time.

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Huh??? "Is your brain as dead as Saddam's and Bin Laden's?" is not a PA, but a rhetorical question?

By definition, yes it is a rhetorical question. But, if feel a need to answer, by all means, feel free to do so.

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Following a UN resolution, and after a vote by the Senate (77-23) and the House (296-133).

Obama just sent troops.

This was a covert operation. The end justifies the means.
Would you rather it spent weeks in the senate and plastered all over the internet giving OBL time to escape?

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http://abcnews.go.com/...d=5045626&page=1

Thanks! Your link just proves my point that Bush much rather drop bombs.
You have nothing.
Also, I do not have an irrational hatred towards Bush, but a rational reason to believe that his administration would had dropped bombs if given the chance.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[DaVinci 0]

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That is your statement. You claim that no bombs were ever dropped on Saddam! That is insane, as we all watched it on T.V. in real time.

No, that is what you failed to grasp.

You said "Bush would have bombed Saddam to get him". I said, correctly, that he sent a Delta team in.

You are barking, but just making noise.

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By definition, yes it is a rhetorical question.

By definition, it was a PA. Man up and admit it instead of running away.

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This was a covert operation. The end justifies the means.

Some say the EXACT same thing about Iraq holding free elections. That the end justified the invasion.

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Would you rather it spent weeks in the senate and plastered all over the internet giving OBL time to escape?

Nope, but I am not Obama blind like you are Bush blind.

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Also, I do not have an irrational hatred towards Bush, but a rational reason to believe that his administration would had dropped bombs if given the chance.

Yet the *facts show he sent in a Delta team*.... Once again, you have nothing but hot air and insults.