How would YOU have dealt with Bin Laden?

[aphid 0]

Wendy. I can assure you from personal experience that, no, apparently they don't. If you're interested, just say the word and I'll send you files privately.

[DanG 1]

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Take him alive, if possible, and waterboard him every day for the rest of his life until he told us everything we wanted to know about his organization, their plans, and the whereabouts of his people. If it was impractical to take him alive, he'd get a 5.56mm to the forehead. He wouldn't be "read his rights." He might just get a burial in a pig pen.

I'd go with take him alive (if possible), and use effective interogation techniques (not torture) until he told us everything we wanted to know. Try him in court, and if found guilty, let him rot in solitary confinement for the rest of his life. When he dies, return his body to his family to be buried as they see fit.

I put the importance of American values and security above the importance of sick revenge fantasies.

- Dan G

[jaybird18c 24]

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Take him alive, if possible, and waterboard him every day for the rest of his life until he told us everything we wanted to know about his organization, their plans, and the whereabouts of his people. If it was impractical to take him alive, he'd get a 5.56mm to the forehead. He wouldn't be "read his rights." He might just get a burial in a pig pen.

I'd go with take him alive (if possible), and use effective interogation techniques (not torture) until he told us everything we wanted to know. Try him in court, and if found guilty, let him rot in solitary confinement for the rest of his life. When he dies, return his body to his family to be buried as they see fit.

I put the importance of American values and security above the importance of sick revenge fantasies.

I'll bet you might feel differently if it were your wife and kids, brother, sister, mom, dad, "brother-in-arms", who were about to be killed by a person who has sworn to do so and has demonstrated his willingness to follow through. If that prisoner had information that would help you to save thier lives, I'll bet you'd be willing to cut his fingers off one by one.

[DanG 1]

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I'll bet you might feel differently if it were your wife and kids, brother, sister, mom, dad, "brother-in-arms", who were about to be killed by a person who has sworn to do so and has demonstrated his willingness to follow through. If that prisoner had information that would help you to save thier lives, I'll bet you'd be willing to cut his fingers off one by one.

The "ticking time bomb" scenario that people love to trot out is not from the real world. In the real world, terrorist operations take years of planning. The chance that we happened to catch OBL mere seconds before he was about to put an operation into action is infinitesimally small. I'm willing to take that chance and use longer term methods that have been shown to be much more effective. I'd prefer to save the lives of all the people who would have been impacted by the dozens of operations planned for the next few years instead of trying to save the lives of the people who are going to be killed before the next commercial break.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

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I'd go with take him alive (if possible), and use effective interogation techniques (not torture) until he told us everything we wanted to know. Try him in court, and if found guilty, let him rot in solitary confinement for the rest of his life. When he dies, return his body to his family to be buried as they see fit.

I put the importance of American values and security above the importance of sick revenge fantasies.

I agree with this, though I have no issue with the death penalty instead of solitary. And the PC position that torture doesn't work is such an oversimplification that it's now just a political farce talking point.

Also, taking him alive would have been great, but the mission had to have the option to kill him if necessary for the safety of the seals and civilians.



You guys seem to have a one track opinion on what torture is (essentially gratuitous discomfort until you hear what you want to hear motivated by revenge only).

Torture is effective when conducted in very specific ways - it requires showing the criminal that you will ask questions you already know the answer to and making sure the criminal knows that fact and that false answers get even worse treatment. Slipping in the 'real' questions infrequently to ensure that most of the time, those questions get real answers as a result, and not just stories - and then that requires followup and confirmation and appropriate feedback to the criminal. Absolutely no element of revenge is included, it can't be, it's a persistence and behavioral thing. not instant gratification results. I'd imagine it has to be very emotionless and deliberate - completely the opposite of what's claimed here just to 'win the argument'.

The short side, is that the process is not fast. It's more about psychology/conditioning than pain.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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The "ticking time bomb" scenario that people love to trot out is not from the real world.

This is still possible, but I agree that this is not really pertinent as the main point of the discussion. Just another emotional talking point from the other side of the debate

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

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You guys seem to have a one track opinion on what torture is (essentially gratuitous discomfort until you hear what you want to hear motivated by revenge only).

Torture is effective when conducted in very specific ways - it requires showing the criminal that you will ask questions you already know the answer to and making sure the criminal knows that fact and that false answers get even worse treatment. Slipping in the 'real' questions infrequently to ensure that most of the time, those questions get real answers as a result, and not just stories - and then that requires followup and confirmation and appropriate feedback to the criminal. Absolutely no element of revenge is included, it can't be, it's a persistence and behavioral thing. not instant gratification results. I'd imagine it has to be very emotionless and deliberate - completely the opposite of what's claimed here just to 'win the argument'.

The short side, is that the process is not fast. It's more about psychology/conditioning than pain.

That sounds good, but if you're going to take that much time, you might as well use the tried and true techniques that don't require torture. "You guys" who want to use torture always trot out the ticking time bomb, "we don't time to be PC" scenario. Trained interrogators can make the informant want to share their knowledge if given enough time. They get much better intel that way, and if the guy ever gets released, he won't have gruesome stories and scars to use against us.

Besides, torture is illegal and immoral. There was a day that those things mattered. I'm sorry that day is passed.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

That's a better answer. Delete the whole "gratuitous revenge" hyperbola and it's a better argument. And if the other side deletes the whole "ticking time bomb" and "what if it was YOUR kid" argument, also a better argument.

people are lazy and always avoid logic and morals and skip straight to emotive crap - that's why debate on this site typically sucks


"you guys"

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

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Delete the whole "gratuitous revenge" hyperbola and it's a better argument.

I wish I could. Read most of the responses to this thread, and its obvious most people want some seriously twisted revenge.

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"you guys"

Sorry, I meant to say, "yous guys."

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

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but if you're going to take that much time, you might as well use the tried and true techniques that don't require torture

this implies you are only allowed to do one or the other.........

Most heavily protected secrets are a consolidation of several bit of intel that require followup and a few very smart people that can 'fill in the gaps'. Much like this last bit on finding OBL.

So long term methods of BOTH physical and mental interrogation and conversion, and everything else available should be on the buffet of things we'd apply.

I'm still undecided on it, myself. I would at least 'prioritize' the techniques in favor of the more palatable techniques if I could.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

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So long term methods of BOTH physical and mental interrogation and conversion, and everything else available should be on the buffet of things we'd apply.

I'm still undecided on it, myself. I would at least 'prioritize' the techniques in favor of the more palatable techniques if I could.

For me, the moral and legal arguments push it over the edge. Soldiers don't take an oath to defend the people of the United States from harm, they take an oath to defend the Constitution. Using torture, IMHO, is a threat to the American ideal, and as such should be off the table.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

excellent

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,075]

>I'll bet you might feel differently if it were your wife and kids, brother,
>sister, mom, dad, "brother-in-arms", who were about to be killed by a
>person . . .

If that were the case, wouldn't you want professionals to use the most effective techniques possible, rather than following instructions from a fictional TV show?

If someone did cut off the guy's fingers, and the guy said anything to make it stop, and your family died as a result - would you be happy about cutting off his fingers? Is causing someone else pain more important than protecting your family?

[DaVinci 0]

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The "ticking time bomb" scenario that people love to trot out is not from the real world.

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http://articles.cnn.com/2003-12-12/us/sprj.nirq.west.ruling_1_allen-west-iraqi-detainee-military-justice?_s=PM:US

In testimony at an Article 32 hearing -- the military's version of a grand jury or preliminary hearing -- West said the policeman, Yahya Jhrodi Hamoody, was not cooperating with interrogators, so he watched four of his soldiers from the 220th Field Artillery Battalion beat the detainee on the head and body.

West said he also threatened to kill Hamoody. Military prosecutors say West followed up on that threat by taking the suspect outside, put him on the ground near a weapons clearing barrel and fired his 9 mm pistol into the barrel.

Apparently not knowing where West's gun was aimed, Hamoody cracked and gave information about the planned ambush on West's convoy, thwarting the attack.

West said there were no further ambushes on U.S. forces in Taji until he was relieved of his leadership post on October 4.

"I know the method I used was not right, but I wanted to take care of my soldiers," West testified to a military courtroom of observers and some teary-eyed troops formerly under his command.

Asked if he would have act differently if under similar circumstances again, West testified, "If it's about the lives of my soldiers at stake, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can."

But while West's supporters call him a hero, military prosecutors said his actions amounted to torture and violated articles 128 and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Seemed real enough there.

[DanG 1]

Nice example, but there's not enough detail there to say for sure. If they suspected an ambush was imminent, they would have changed tactics in response anyway. I'd like to hear more about this story. Maybe when I have time I'll look up more details.

- Dan G

[SpeedRacer 1]

I would have left him alone until Obama was out of the white house and we had a Republican president.

Speed Racer
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