Is war the natural state of man ?

[jimbrown 0]

Ya know, I think a lot.
Over the last decade or so I've been thinking alot about wars (for obvious reasons). I've come to wonder , is war the natural state of man?
Do most men wish to war with their fellow man?

Do the majority of you wish to kill others and destroy infrastructures?
Do the majority of the people you know aspire to the same?

Or do you and the majority of the people you know have a good heart ,scrambling to help anyone they find in need ?

I'll bet the majority of you wouldn't throw a Coke can into the curb.
I bet the majority of you would hold that can until you reached the proper receptacle where you could dispose of the can in a civilized manner. I bet most of your freinds would as well.
Considering that, I kinda' doubt you'ld normally be ok with dropping a bomb onto a city street and blowing up an apartment building and strowing rubble ,dead and wounded bodies all over the street. I also doubt you'ld really be ok with wantonly busting a fresh water pipeline that the average city dweller depends on to satisfy their families daily needs for fresh and clean water.I bet you would never consider blowing up the electrical supply to hospitals where premature infants are depending on the electricity supply to sustain their lives!

No.., these are tradgedies you would be whipping out your credit card and donating to the cause to fix.

So why do we support wars?

Why do we , a civilized , sympathetic, and empathetic people attack our fellow man?

Why do we send our brothers our fathers our freinds over seas to kill others like us and risk our loved ones coming home maimed and psyhcollogically deranged or even not coming home at all ?
Why?

THIS IS MADNESS !!!!!!

IT IS INSANITY!!!!!!!!

Who fooled us into believing this is a normal state of human affairs?

Since my first day in history class I was taught that every war the United States of America ever entered was a just war for a just cause.
I suspect they were lyin' .

I turn on the tv and every war we are presently engaged in is a just war for a just cause .
I suspect they're still lyin'.

I think that those common people in the countries we are currently at war with are not that much different than you or I and our freinds.
They probably walk an extra few yards to throw the Coke can in a garbage can.
Their daily thoughts are probably more consumed with how to feed the kids than " I must kill the American Infidels."

And if that is the case..,
Who's been Ben -Laden?
Sorry,
I intentionaly mixxpelled (x is not the consanant intended in the representation of this word. X represents any thought or character you wish to interject at this moment. Peace),

Been- lyln'.
Was it the White House or the media?

Or did they conspire>


LOL !! They play you guys for such chumps!!!

Watchin' it ...it's Silly !!!

Peace,
Jim B

one more thing, misspelled is one of the most often misspelled words!
I probabaly should have used spell chehk! LOL!!

LoHD Fo Give me LOHD

*
*
Go Away it's all over!
It was up there ,not down heare.
Come back and try again tommorow.
In the mean time we have some very nice consolation prizes out back

[wmw999 2,446]

I think it's the natural state of some people. Unfortunately, once a few people start a war, a whole lot of people who didn't want to be involved, all of a sudden are.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Not at all, the natural state of man is in a La-Z-Boy, watching a sport of choice while getting a BJ.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

For thousands and thousands of years humans have found new excuses to rationalize attacking their fellow humans for territorial gains as well as ideology reasons to eliminate their foe. Humans have been doing this for eons, so I can't see us changing anytime soon. One thing that has changed is how we report wars. In today's 24/7 media + internet age, how many people would tolerate the losses of an Iwo Jima, Dieppe or Stalingrad? (just to name a few). So in this regard less people die in our modern conflicts than were dying in the early or middle parts of the 20th Century wars. But people are still dying.

While Europe (not counting the Balkans) has been quiet since 1945 and North America has never had a major modern conflict on it's soil, history has a way of repeating itself. The Spanish Civil War from 1936 to 1939 (not really taught much to those of us in North America) was a nasty war where the Left hated the Right and the Right hated the Left. It could happen again. Similar hate exists in our modern world.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Zach 0]

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Since my first day in history class I was taught that every war the United States of America ever entered was a just war for a just cause.
I suspect they were lyin'.

When did you go to school? This is simply "bad history."

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I turn on the tv and every war we are presently engaged in is a just war for a just cause .
I suspect they're still lyin'.

People are going to have different interpretations of what is "just." That said, of course a government is going to pitch a war as being necessary. What government is going to say, "We don't really need to go into Iraq, but I just don't like Saddam's attitude."


As to your original question, I would argue that war is simply a manifestation of man's true nature. I think Madison had it right when he said "If men were angels, no government would be necessary." I believe that in a state of nature, man is selfish, not because its fun being an asshole, but because when no one is looking out for you, you must look out for yourself.

Isn't this aspect of man that I'm referring to the reason we NEED rules and laws. It has been proven time and again that if people aren't regulated to some degree, they won't regulate themselves. While there are people, as you suggest, who will throw their trash in the trash can instead of on the ground (etc.), I think this is not because it is a natural human inclination to do so, its because of our individual morals and ethics which have developed from social norms and mores in our particular environment. Thats why some parts of a city have a certain post-tsunami look to them while other parts do not.

Zach

p.s. Did I stray from the topic? If so, I appologize.

[airtwardo 7]

We're hard wired for violent aggression...tough to get animals to throw themselves on the spit back in caveman days...fear of a good head bashing is also how Fred kept Barney from banging Wilma and screwing with 'his' gene pool.

Early civilization diversified...there were hunters and there were gatherers, the American west had ranchers and farmers...now we have Republicans & Democrats.

But we all still have the gene that says I just gotta go kill somethin'!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Darius11 12]

War will exist until there are fascist )in the world and until resources are an issue. When we progresses to the point where all people realize you should not force your way on to others, and until the day our technology makes basic resources easy to get by all there will be war.

Please keep in mind basic resources change with the standard of living.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Not at all, the natural state of man is in a La-Z-Boy, watching a sport of choice while getting a BJ.

+1

More beer, boobies, and BJs = Less War.

Speed Racer
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[Guest]

"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind," the borderer said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. "Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

Robert E. Howard, Beyond the Black River (1935)

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[LongWayToFall 0]

War HAS been the only solution to many problems, but not all, by a long shot.

War is like rolling around with a bunch of drunk friends. One of em is going to say something stupid to another group of drunk people, and all of a sudden everyone in both groups is brawling, just because 2 people have big mouths.

Fuckin tough guys.

[stevebabin 0]

A possible genetic predisposition?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_6_163/ai_97997816/

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[RonD1120 62]

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We're hard wired for violent aggression...tough to get animals to throw themselves on the spit back in caveman days...fear of a good head bashing is also how Fred kept Barney from banging Wilma and screwing with 'his' gene pool.

Early civilization diversified...there were hunters and there were gatherers, the American west had ranchers and farmers...now we have Republicans & Democrats.

But we all still have the gene that says I just gotta go kill somethin'!

Spent the major part of last Saturday with my wife and her two oldest sons. We were at a improvised shooting range in the south GA woods expending a lot of ammo from various assault and self-protection weapons as well as high powered hunting rifles.

Every time a shot was fired I thought another terrorist/Taliban bites the dust. It all seemed quite normal and natural. And, a good time was had by all.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

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A possible genetic predisposition?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_6_163/ai_97997816/

I don't know if I got it from Timujin but I believe I have it along with other built in flaws. Revenge is the primary motivator in my case, as opposed to material acquisition. I am very thankful I found a way to stay in check.

Therefore, war is the appropriate response to an attack on America, such as Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

The Vietnam war is a quandary. I never questioned our involvement from 1961 until around 1968. Now it is known that war was politically motivated.

We have adapted our military philosophy accordingly. Warrior is a legitimate profession. Thus, we seem to be relying on our genetic preferences.

We're gonna romp and stomp,
And, smash and bash,
And, slash and bash and burn.
There's no way to delay,
The trouble comin' everyday.
~Frank Zappa

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jaybird18c 24]

“On the principal that no clean thing can come out of what is unclean (Job 14:4), all that are born of woman are declared ‘abominable and corrupt,’ to whose nature iniquity alone is attractive (Job 15:14-16). Accordingly, to become sinful, men do not wait until the age of accountable action arrives. Rather, they are apostates from the womb, and as soon as they are born go astray, speaking lies (Ps. 58:3); they are even shapen in iniquity, and conceived in sin (Ps. 51:5). The propensity of their heart is evil from their youth (Gen. 8:21), and it is out of the heart that all of the issues of life proceed (Prov. 4:23; 20:11). Acts of sin are therefore but the expression of the natural heart, which is deceitful above all things and exceedingly corrupt (Jer. 17:9).” – Warfield, Biblical Doctrines, p. 440.

[metalslug 36]

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Not at all, the natural state of man is in a La-Z-Boy, watching a sport of choice while getting a BJ.

Heh, interesting that you mention sport. You're probably already aware of the parallels that some have drawn between sport and battle, that both feed the competitive nature of man.
Wear your team's shirt, wave their banner, paint your face in their colors and cheer them to victory.
I do not, however, believe that real war is "the natural state of man", but that "Justice must be served." might be. Even aggressor nations like to convince their own people that they are actually righting an injustice or defending some valuable cause.
Some conflicts are forced on man. Someone mentioned 9/11. Crimes were committed; homicide, assault, destruction of property, and then some.
It was fairly obvious to the US that diplomacy would not have worked to convince the Taliban to hand over suspects for prosecution, and so a more direct approach was needed.
Where possible, most nations would prefer to win the hearts and minds and of their enemies. When you have your enemies by the balls then their hearts and minds tend to follow.
On occasion one may also be tempted to refer to Ferengi rule of acquisition number 34; "War is good for business.."

[popsjumper 2]

No. Stupidity is.
Among other things, stupidity does lead to war.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[champu 1]

Quote

"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind," the borderer said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. "Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

Robert E. Howard, Beyond the Black River (1935)

mh

I think posting a quote or a statement in a thread, kicking off a thoughful discussion about that quote or statement, ignoring that discussion, and then reposting the quote or statement in another thread is pretty rude.

[Guest]

Quote

Quote

"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind," the borderer said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. "Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."

Robert E. Howard, Beyond the Black River (1935)

mh

I think posting a quote or a statement in a thread, kicking off a thoughful discussion about that quote or statement, ignoring that discussion, and then reposting the quote or statement in another thread is pretty rude.

meh.

How about this one?

"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato

Or this?

"The war is just, which is necessary." - Machiavelli

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[champu 1]

I think there's more truth in those quotes. The differences between these and Howard's quote aren't very subtle.

[pirana 0]

Conflict over resources is a recurring natural state for all animals. Humans have simply invented the means to take those conflicts to levels not seen in any other species as far as ability to destroy other creatures, each other, and the environment.

BTW - I strongly agree with Agent Smith's summation - humans are this planet's virus.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[jaybird18c 24]

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BTW - I strongly agree with Agent Smith's summation - humans are this planet's virus.

This statement doesn't even make sense from your atheistic evolutionary worldview.

[rehmwa 2]

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BTW - I strongly agree with Agent Smith's summation - humans are this planet's virus.

This statement doesn't even make sense from your atheistic evolutionary worldview.

Actually, his statement doesn't make any sense in that he noted that humans were just acting naturally and were very effective at it. That defines natural, not viral.

Pissing on someone's religious orientation is a non-starter

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,991]

>I strongly agree with Agent Smith's summation - humans are this planet's virus.

Here's the whole quote from the first Matrix movie:

=========
I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.
=========

Some observations:

It is indeed ironic that the Matrix was filmed in Australia. In Australia, mammals (rabbits) were introduced in the 1850's. The person who introduced them noted "the introduction of a few rabbits could do little harm and might provide a touch of home, in addition to a spot of hunting." Since then they have destroyed huge parts of the ecosystem there, caused extinctions and massive erosion, and indeed consumed so much that they have destroyed much of the ecosystem they rely on.

It is further ironic that in such cases, the only limiting factors on such animals are food supply and disease (i.e. viruses.) Indeed, disease - both natural and human-introduced viruses introduced specifically to control rabbits - has been the only significantly successful method employed to reduce rabbit population.

So Smith's claim was exactly backwards - mammals DO multiply until every resource is consumed, then they begin to die after all resources are consumed. Viruses can help control that overpopulation before it reaches that point. Humans, in contrast, tend to stabilize their populations once their society reaches a point where scarcity does not limit growth (i.e. most first world countries, and increasingly larger parts of the world.)

[loumeinhart 0]

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Humans, in contrast, tend to stabilize their populations once their society reaches a point where scarcity does not limit growth (i.e. most first world countries, and increasingly larger parts of the world.)

This is pretty interesting - can you expand it?